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***RED Raven Footage***

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  • #31
    Actually... lol... I bow out...

    Zero will come from this.

    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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    • #32
      Originally posted by CineMusic
      In my neck of the woods you have to sell a camera package to a producer or an ad agency. What I am getting at here has to do with marketing and the presentation of a professional cinema camera product. I think it's best to show up on your "first date" looking your best. Then stress the camera out in low light, natural light with HDR challenges and the like. I have two BMD cameras and love them. Based on the footage so far, I have no solid way of knowing what differentiates the mini 4.6k from cheaper prosumer cameras. It has not been placed in a professional context to allow that camera to really sing. The 4K wedding material looks good because some real thought and planning went into the presentation. I can look at that and say, "okay, this looks really nice." The producers and directors in my area are watching the footage that's out there. They have no way of appreciating Ronin, low-mode dog shots, little rolling shutter, poorly lit dialogue scenes. I see the absence of significant noise. They see dark spots and little definition in faces. They respond, "I thought this was supposed to be a hot camera. Let's shoot this gig with the Alexa." This is heartbreaking. In the end, I am hoping the my Ursa Mini 4.6k shines and people will come around and want to rent it and shoot with it rather that RED or Alexa for local high productional value stuff. Anyway, it has not been my intention to slam the beta testers. It would have been nice to give you guys a little budget to show off the camera; wait to give you the opportunity to shoot raw; provided you with 256GB Lexar Cfast cards; and tossed the footage to me or others who would have been happy to grade the DNG sequences for free in Resolve at three levels: raw > balanced > rec. 709 > fully graded. IMO, this is how one should premiere a cool camera.
      I certainly understand where you're coming from.

      I think ultimately, and I'm just throwing out my opinion here, is that BMD is making a tool which until now has done amazingly well with publicity generated by the community itself. I think making their own production is easily within their means, even if it's just a simple little scene to demo. However, it may not be all that helpful with what they're trying to do with their cameras.

      If we go back to 2012, seeing JB's footage was instantly meaningful because it represented what the camera literally looks like in every day situations. He didn't go out and rent a fog machine and a made-to-order rustic set, he just went out and gave everyone a taste of what the image from the 2.5k camera was like and what you as a shooter could expect on a realistic level.

      A glossy promo like RED's here, is totally valid, and a great way to demo a product. If you want to rent your gear and you're not a shooter, you can say HEY, look at the kind of image this beast produces. And that demo might very well be the reason you make money.

      Perhaps it's a business mentality vs creative / artistic / community-driven mentality. BMD sells enough cameras to keep producing more. They know who's buying them and they know that publicity will come from Filmmakers above all else. I don't think there's a right or wrong way about how you seek to promote or generate publicity really.

      BMD wants to leave it up to you for better or worse, and they can afford to have that mentality. RED is out to impress you, your clients and themselves.. NOTHING wrong with that. Just different strategies at the end of the day.
      Test footage Vimeo page: https://vimeo.com/romanalaivi

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      • #33
        It looks great. That being said the DP who shot that could probably get the same image out of a bmpcc if he wanted to.
        I admire the speed at which RED is developing this camera though, there is a chance it will be out before the 4.6K.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by cmckinlay View Post
          If JB's real production footage is so "convincing" perhaps BMD should share it, because I as well as other here need some major convincing.
          What an idiot. Do you think they're not sharing it cause they don't want to, or because they CAN'T ???
          I'm sorry, but in a thread full of stupid comments that just broke me.

          Originally posted by cmckinlay View Post
          That Raven footage looks unfortunately much better than current mini footage IMO.
          That Raven promo could have been shot with basically any RAW capable camera and looked just as good. I didn't see any limits being pushed what so ever. It was very "safe" and only tells me the people involved in the production are capable, it doesn't convince me of the camera because it wasn't a challenge for the camera in any way. If someone watches that and thinks "wow the camera looks good" they're a moron. The people involved made it look good. Point the camera at something ugly and uncontrolled and if it's still impressive, then we're pushing the limits and actually learning something about the camera.

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          • #35
            If you are selling a product you have to create an impression even for BMD otherwise they would not show up in trade shows telling us about their cameras. You only have to look at BMD website and it shows idealised photos of attractive people using their cameras. Is that marketing? Of course it is. I concur with those who are asking why not have slick promo videos of the 4.6k camera?

            BTW I also believe those who readily dish out insults to others by calling people a "moron" and "idiot" is himself one and should be warned to behave by the moderator who don't seem to be doing a good enough job here.
            Last edited by Taikonaut; 12-05-2015, 12:41 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Steven Abrams View Post
              What an idiot. Do you think they're not sharing it cause they don't want to, or because they CAN'T ???
              I'm sorry, but in a thread full of stupid comments that just broke me.



              That Raven promo could have been shot with basically any RAW capable camera and looked just as good. I didn't see any limits being pushed what so ever. It was very "safe" and only tells me the people involved in the production are capable, it doesn't convince me of the camera because it wasn't a challenge for the camera in any way. If someone watches that and thinks "wow the camera looks good" they're a moron. The people involved made it look good. Point the camera at something ugly and uncontrolled and if it's still impressive, then we're pushing the limits and actually learning something about the camera.
              I think you are bang on, but that's not how marketing works. You are preaching to an echo chamber of camera nerds who get what you are saying, but the masses need the razzle dazzle to emotionally connect and feel like it's a big deal. Same with any glitzy commercial for any product.

              Now, you might think that producers/directors etc... ought to know better, but the reality is they are seduced by this kind of stuff.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                If you are selling a product you have to create an impression even for BMD otherwise they would not show up in trade shows telling us about their cameras.
                Except with all their success so far they haven't done that or needed to. They kind of did with the BMCC, but even then it was fairly low key and down to earth as far as a manufacturer produced demo video goes. Maybe they will do something this time, but they'll do fine without it if they don't. It's the guys who can't sell their talent/skill and are trying to sell the camera onto productions instead that are asking for this.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by UTR-Labs View Post
                  Oh ye of little faith.

                  So far we've seen 4.6k prores footage shot with low-to-midland lenses of trees and dogs and such.

                  That Raven footage, for its debut likely had a zillion dollar cine lens on it with another zillion dollars in lighting gear.

                  I'm in for the 4.6k.
                  Nope.. $1000 lenses and normal-people lighting.. All Written, Shot, Directed, and Edited by people that work at RED that just love what they do on a indie (i.e. no) budget. We even built the sets ourselves.

                  Sorry to disappoint you with no walking around the street pointing at lamp posts and people walking their dogs and boats floating in water type stuff. That kinda footage may be exciting to watch ( said nobody, ever, ) and seem somewhat normal nowadays for camera tests... but realistically that kinda shit is just not gonna get you paid, and nobody would ever actually hire you to shoot that.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jarred Land View Post
                    Nope.. $1000 lenses and normal-people lighting.. All Written, Shot, Directed, and Edited by people that work at RED that just love what they do on a indie (i.e. no) budget. We even built the sets ourselves.

                    Sorry to disappoint you with no walking around the street pointing at lamp posts and people walking their dogs and boats floating in water type stuff. That kinda footage may be exciting to watch ( said nobody, ever, ) and seem somewhat normal nowadays for camera tests... but realistically that kinda shit is just not gonna get you paid, and nobody would ever actually hire you to shoot that.
                    Now ain't that the truth.
                    www.vimeo.com/sweden

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                    • #40
                      Looks like porno chic

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                      • #41
                        The RED RAVEN demo looks great and props to them for making it under the conditions they have done.

                        I personally don't put much faith in manufacturer made demo films. Rarely are they made under the circumstances that I'll be working with and you know they would only do things that favour the camera, not what or how you would use it. And in narrative drama filmmaking, those aren't always the same thing.

                        BM haven't ever made demo films yet. The closest they have done was Hook sharing some of his early test footage made when he was a new employee of the company, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't funded by BM to be demo footage.

                        Their model has been to invite those they know and call friends to test the camera and give them feedback on it. Eventually, those that test with can share some of that footage publicly if they wish to. BM haven't had any jurisdiction or direction over what that content is. They will restrict when footage can be shared and when the camera original files can be shared as is their prerogative when they haven't finalised the camera.

                        I think it's pretty important to note that. The publicly available 4.6 Ursa footage isn't BM's demo footage because they don't really have any. It's those that are independent of BM that have been testing the camera and giving the development team feedback on the camera, it's image and functionality being allowed to share their thoughts and what they've been using it on.

                        BM's end goal is testing the camera and improving it. Not making marketing material to sell a camera. You may want them to make a demo film, but that's not what's been "commissioned".

                        I think it's worth keeping that in mind before you sledge those that are brave enough to release their personal demo footage. I'd also add there are several others testing that haven't released footage, that don't hang out on forums like this either.

                        I have been personally using the camera daily on a US cable TV series. It's been working great so far and it's getting me shot's that I couldn't get with any other camera. I'm camera agnostic and I have a whole bunch to choose from. We've even shot a little bit of RED. I can't share my 4.6K footage because it's a show still be produced, that won't go to air for some time and it's owned by Universal. They get to decide who gets to see it.

                        Very good luck to RED and their new camera. What a great era we live in where we are truly spoilt for options and choice in the way we make images.


                        jb

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jarred Land View Post
                          Sorry to disappoint you with no walking around the street pointing at lamp posts and people walking their dogs and boats floating in water type stuff. That kinda footage may be exciting to watch ( said nobody, ever, ) and seem somewhat normal nowadays for camera tests... but realistically that kinda shit is just not gonna get you paid, and nobody would ever actually hire you to shoot that.
                          So classy when the administrator of the forum who runs a competing camera company comes on and bags early demo footage of said competitor.

                          How low and sleazy can someone get?

                          Jesus.

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                          • #43
                            Why is Jarred Land administrator at BMCUser.com anyway? Does he own this site?

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                            • #44
                              Don't you know that?
                              Andrew Bell
                              Blackmagic Production 4K Camera
                              https://www.youtube.com/user/reklama4demo

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                              • #45
                                Damn son.

                                Looks like a high dollar production though. That's actually a pretty good business strategy. Make people think the camera is the best available when it's mostly good lighting, set design, and camera work.

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