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  • URSA Mini 4.6k FPN

    Hi guys first time posting on the BMC user forums,

    I received my camera about a week ago and have been stress testing since,
    I've noticed FPN at 800 ISO and lots of FPN at 1600 ISO making them both unusable.
    I know everyone is saying I need to expose properly and most of the time I do, but when you're shooting any scene with ANY black/grey in it which does happen in daylight situations, this FPN will be visible.
    One of my biggest concerns is by crushing the FPN away, I am effectively crushing a couple stops in the shadows making this a 13 stop camera which to me is looking worse than my BMCC 2.5K!!
    I used John Brawley's clip as reference when purchasing this camera and you will all notice that those clips have no FPN even when pushed to complete purple noise in resolve.

    Here is a link to the JPGs in 4.6k and a couple sequenced DNGs
    Let me know what you guys think.

    (UPDATE)
    I just updated to beta ver2 and the problem seems to be worse, check the beta 2 file in the dropbox.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9pvctx4l4...eY2nZj8Ma?dl=0
    Last edited by Jake Lutz; 09-15-2016, 08:01 PM.

  • #2
    Yeah. It's all over the place.
    Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
    Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
    Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

    Comment


    • #3
      I think your only choices are to continue using the camera as is with or without light, always use light, or try to get a replacement.

      In my opinion, no firmware will ever fix that because FPN is a strong characteristic of BM cameras.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NorBro View Post
        I think your only choices are to continue using the camera as is with or without light, always use light, or try to get a replacement.

        In my opinion, no firmware will ever fix that because FPN is a strong characteristic of BM cameras.
        Hey Norbert, when BMD first released the BMPC it had really bad FPN but they "fixed" it with firmware updates. Or at least they significantly improved it.
        So it seems anyway. Do you suppose it really was the firmware? or perhaps manufacturing improvements during the same time period?
        Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
        Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
        Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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        • #5
          I only looked at the first DNG but what i saw is what some are referring to as a "cross-hatch" rather than what gets called FPN. Please contact your local support office.
          Blackmagic Design
          My BMD LUTs.

          **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

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          • #6
            I have no idea what Blackmagic does, but I can only tell you that I have personally spent a lot of money on BM cameras in my life, and I have used many rented models and also owned ALL of them multiple times (sold one, bought it again the next year, etc.) besides the 4.6K, which I only rented a few times to test, and FPN (or whatever you want to call it) was present in every single camera with the slightest bit of underexposure...the look is ingrained in my brain as being normal with BM cameras.

            Why it's better or worse in some units is a mystery to me.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CaptainHook View Post
              I only looked at the first DNG but what i saw is what some are referring to as a "cross-hatch" rather than what gets called FPN. Please contact your local support office.
              Thanks for having a quick look,
              take a look at the first jpg in the Dropbox
              that is an ungraded 1600 iso dng export from DaVinci.
              I know what the cross-hatch aliasing is and it is not that.
              Im located in Adelaide SA
              so would Melbourne be my closest call?

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              • #8
                So what was "fixed" is now un-fixed? What's the deal?
                Filmmaker - Author
                https://jgiambrone.wordpress.com/

                Youtube

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by NorBro View Post
                  I think your only choices are to continue using the camera as is with or without light, always use light, or try to get a replacement.

                  In my opinion, no firmware will ever fix that because FPN is a strong characteristic of BM cameras.
                  I was an early adopter with the big ursa which followed the many heated discussions online about FPN on the bmpc4k. My first unit had terrible FPN, as you are saying, at both the base iso and pushed one stop. At the time, I was given a grilling on here saying it was nonsense and that I'd not exposed properly. However, I had exactly the same issues you're describing, FPN in blacks at base iso when correctly exposed. It took a long time and a lot of persistence as BM said they tested it against their bench camera and it was within expectation. In the end I think they got so fed up of me that they sent me a replacement camera. Its still the V1 sensor but the difference was night and day. 400 is very clean and 800 is usually ok if you're exposed. I recently shot a doc in Rome where they wanted to do some night ons doc street scenes. I was very apprehensive as its not really the right camera for that work but was amazed by how well the camera performed. There are definite QC issues and variations but when you get a good one, they're very good.
                  Attached Files

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by xrayfilms View Post
                    I was an early adopter with the big ursa which followed the many heated discussions online about FPN on the bmpc4k. My first unit had terrible FPN, as you are saying, at both the base iso and pushed one stop. At the time, I was given a grilling on here saying it was nonsense and that I'd not exposed properly. However, I had exactly the same issues you're describing, FPN in blacks at base iso when correctly exposed. It took a long time and a lot of persistence as BM said they tested it against their bench camera and it was within expectation. In the end I think they got so fed up of me that they sent me a replacement camera. Its still the V1 sensor but the difference was night and day. 400 is very clean and 800 is usually ok if you're exposed. I recently shot a doc in Rome where they wanted to do some night ons doc street scenes. I was very apprehensive as its not really the right camera for that work but was amazed by how well the camera performed. There are definite QC issues and variations but when you get a good one, they're very good.
                    Good to have someone who understands,
                    I returned my 2.5k 3 times until finally getting refunded and using a friends as that one was perfect.
                    Strange that Brawley happened to get a near perfect model to show us all how good it was..
                    I'll be basing my expectation on the dngs he made available.

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                    • #11
                      I never understood why fpn should be something that is "expected" when not properly exposed. I may want to shoot a scene with my subject properly lit and everything else very dark. The noise should only appear if I'd try to push it in post, right? I've read and seen A LOT of people shooting videos with the um4.6k at night and it looks clean. No noise. So it should be a matter of some sensors not being spot on.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hey everyone,

                        I've never posted here before as i've just been a lurker. However, last week I finally got my 4.6K and due to a few jobs, haven't had a chance to stress test it but i've been doing some tests and came into some obvious FPN. Now, I know people are saying that you should expose correctly, etc and I totally agree but I personally feel if i'm shooting at night or instances where black space is bound to be there, then there shouldn't be FPN there, at all, only if i start pushing it dramatically.

                        So i shot this and can get most of the FPN out by crushing the blacks but that's just it, i dont always want to 'crush' the blacks.

                        Im not the most advanced person when it comes to identifying technicalities in images so can any of you help me out here - i think this is on the side of bad if not unacceptable. I have used tonnes of other cameras and this has never happened.

                        I know in previous posts and other threads DNG's are requested but for my line of work and what i do, i hardly ever shoot in raw so i wanted to give you a still of the format i do - prores. I only have a JPEG at the moment and can post a TIFF later if it's better for anyone.

                        Let me know?

                        Thanks guys

                        https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygg9hhbsfp...still.jpg?dl=0

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Do you have some footage we can download.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by david evans View Post
                            I never understood why fpn should be something that is "expected" when not properly exposed. I may want to shoot a scene with my subject properly lit and everything else very dark. The noise should only appear if I'd try to push it in post, right? I've read and seen A LOT of people shooting videos with the um4.6k at night and it looks clean. No noise. So it should be a matter of some sensors not being spot on.
                            >>>>>>>>Yes some sensors can be bad!<<<<<<<<
                            But!
                            Just remember most of those beautiful night scenes are lit extremely well and brought down in post. Hollywood magic!
                            The "why can't this camera shoot at this ISO clean" argument can be said about any camera. There will always be someone who wants the ISO to go higher and want to use less lighting. Which is understandable. Meaning your expectations of what situations it should shoot clean may be different from others.

                            The way to work clean with your camera is to know it's native ISO and what's clean, and expose for it. If you want clean shadows then expose the shadows properly. And drop the entire scene down later. Your shadows will always be shadows and your mids will be mids and highlights will be highlights.

                            There is a reason films have huge lighting departments, and why talented DP's spend years practicing their craft. Lighting, it's probably the number one reason for beautiful photography.
                            Even a daylight shoots need lighting from time to time or bounce. And bounce is not restricted to the talent, you can bounce your shadows if need be. Poor lit scenes and high ISO cameras A7S, also have side effects to the color.

                            Don't get me wrong, I too would love to pull my pocket out and start shooting in a back alley at night, but the perfect conditions to do that are rare. So I know I'm going to have to do some work, bring my lights, and practice my craft when those situations arise. #wedontneedthea7s
                            Last edited by Timothy Cook; 09-16-2016, 09:59 AM.
                            Vimeo.com/dropbars

                            https://www.instagram.com/cook_it_off/

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jake Lutz View Post
                              Good to have someone who understands,
                              I returned my 2.5k 3 times until finally getting refunded and using a friends as that one was perfect.
                              Strange that Brawley happened to get a near perfect model to show us all how good it was..
                              I'll be basing my expectation on the dngs he made available.
                              Jake, there are often more problems in the prototype cameras I use than with production line cameras. You just have to know where to look. Believe it or not, my cameras are often "worse" for things like FPN. I get really attached though to my first cameras and try and hold onto them rather than swap them out for production line versions. I get sentimental.

                              There is also evidence of FPN in the recent 4.6K demo footage that BM released that I shot if you look for it. The night exterior on the bridge for example. It just doesn't show up once it's graded, but the shot is there and available to download with FPN and all.

                              I haven't looked at your specific footage, I'm just talking in generalities, but it seems the consensus here is that you should have a good case for taking this back to BM.

                              JB

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