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  • BMCC and GH4 or BMPC and BMPCC?

    Hey everyone,

    So next year I'm starting to do this full time and I'll be building a new kit from scratch (I used to have a BMCC). I'll be shooting films, Music videos, Commercials, Weddings and Corporate videos.

    So I can either choose between getting a BMCC along with a GH4 for 4k stuff.

    OR

    I can get a BMPC 4k. (I might be able to fit in the pocket camera aswel). What do people think, they would do if they'd the money?

    I love the image on the BMCC with the speedbooster, but the Moire issues were challenging when using it. Still not against the camera though as it'll be hard not to pick it because I love its DR and color.

  • #2
    The pocket and the GH4 share a lens mount. And I think the newest MB Speedbooster is designed to fit both. That seems like a smart way to use both kinds of camera.

    Comment


    • #3
      Wait for micro camera, so you can get 2x cameras with global shutter/60p and ext monitor for the same price. I think its problematic to match gh4 and bmpcc in the way you want.

      Comment


      • #4
        The 4k seems like the least desirable sensor in the Blackmagic lineup atm, the 4.6K ursa and ursa mini sensor seems like a much better bet (still waiting on more footage from it though) or the bmcc/pocket sensor.

        The best choice for your listed use cases seems to be the 4.6K ursa mini (esp. given the wedding use, i would shy away from doing a wedding with a frankenrigged bmcc/bmpcc/dslr), if you can save up for it.

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        • #5
          Hey ursa is out of question unless price drops unfortunately. I'm thinking of going for bmcc and gh4. Bmcc for films etc and gh4 for wedding and corporate stuff perhaps. I might wait for micro and have a look at that also.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi James, I own and use the GH4, BMCC MFT and BMPCC. Since I got the BM cameras I am not using my GH4 that much anymore. The flexibility in postproduction, especially color grading and the much better dynamic range and the filmic look all speak in favor of the BM cams. I bought the Mosaic Engineering Optical Low Pass Filters for the BMCC and Pocket and have not had any issues with Moiré. You can order them here: http://store.mosaicengineering.com/B...lter_p_30.html
            Beware that the OLPFs only fit the MFT mount version of the BMCC.

            I use the Pocket for handheld work with a rather nifty rig and the BMCC from a tripod. I find the rolling shutter and the weight of the BMCC too high for handheld shooting and I didn't want to build a huge and heavy shoulder mount rig.

            The advantage of the GH4 is 4K for cropping and exporting still images at a high enough MP count. But the footage out of the BMs is so much better. The GH4 does not mix well with the BMs as the look is quite different.

            However, something that people tend to underestimate is the price for a fully functional BMCC - BMPCC set up. You can double or triple the price of these cams to make them fully usable. So just getting one Ursa Mini that does everything might not be that much more expensive. This is if you can wait for that cam to be available. If not, maybe pick up a used Pocket now since people seem to be offloading them and use it until the Ursa Mini is available. If you want to go BMCC - Pocket and have the time to wait then get the new Micro camera because of the global shutter and higher frame rate. Also the battery solution is much better. The batteries in the pocket are next to unusable. I am powering it from a BP-U type battery.

            One last aspect that needs to be mentioned is lenses. The camera's sensor size and sensitivity and how well they fit your shooting scenarios have should also determine which camera to get. The f2.8 Lumix zoom for example are too slow on the GH4 and distort too much on the Pocket, at least for my taste. I went for a Sigma 18-35 with the normal speed booster in order to limit of field curvature which is an issue with the sigma. Except for that I have a range of Voigtländer Noktons and I am looking into picking up the Kowa 12 and 8.5mm since I like wide angle images. The URSA Mini with its rather large S35 sensor is making it difficult to find fast but inexpensive wide angle lenses. T 2.0 is the minimum sensitivity for a camera with a supposed native ISO of 800 that can only be cranked up to 1600. And T 2.0 is already pushing it. If you are used to light your sets that's a different story. But if you are dependent on available light and shoot wide angle primes, you'd better have deep pockets for fast cine primes. Fast and wide lenses are much much cheaper for the MFT format.

            Best,
            Helge

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm not sure how you define fast wide and affordable. The 8.5mm MFT Kowa is f2.8 and about $1200. If using on the pocket the super35 equivalent is 17mm, the wide end of most zooms or you can get the 16mm rokinon t2.2 for $400, once you get to 24mm (12mm super16) f1.4 is no problem, and old 2.8 primes are cheap and readily available. There are a lot of options adaptable to canon or natively available. Many more lenses can be adapted to MFT sure but fast wide and cheap for the 16 sensor is just not there, not without adding a speed booster at which point your back to the same lenses you would pick for URSA Mini.

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              • #8
                I owned the 3 BM models, I sold the middle one (BMCC), for me BMPCC and BMPC is the perfect combo, the pocket is perfect for stealthy videos, gimbals, run and gun, super light weight, I have the OLPF on it, so no moiree issues anymore.
                When I need a true s35mm aesthetic, shallow DOF, global shutter, etc... I choose BMPC, it still has a bad reputation because of FPN problems of the early firmware, well, I can say no FPN problems in my book, only gorgeous cinematic images,
                due to its lower DR it's less forgiving about wrong exposure or lowlight recovery, but it can manage even high contrast situations without problems, is not a low light camera, of course.
                RE BMPCC wide angle lenses I think the Speedbooster is mandatory, I have the Tokina+SB combo that is a 6.5/9.5mm f1.7 equivalent with no distortion/vignetting.
                I own a Panny G6 for 50/60p slo mo but once you try Blackmagic is hard to come back.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The 16mm Rokinon has much higher distortion than the 8,5mm Kowa. Since James was considering to pair the BMPCC with a larger sensor cam such as the BMCC or the GH4 there would be the Nokton 10.5 and the SLRmagic 10 which both offer the equivalent of 24mm. However the SLRmagic does distort quite a bit and the quality oft Nokton 10,5 remains to be tested.

                  To get a really fast and good 24mm equivalent for BM's 4.6K sensor one has to at least get Cine Xenars, Ultra Primes, Summicron-C or the even faster T1.4 primes. If one can light a set then there is much more choice. Not sure though if the 16mm Rokinon would be that great since the 4.6K sensor has a 1.42 crop factor which is less than the usual 1.6 crop of an APS-C sensor.

                  I personally don't like soft corners on wide shots. I also don't like heavy distortion and CAs. Also the Speed Booster is not risk free. It amplifies all of these optical problems. The manual native MFT primes have the advantage that it is easier and cheaper to design and produce high quality lenses for a smaller image circle. But it all depends on individual standards of what is good enough.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When buying multiple cameras there are two key ways to look at it:

                    Complementary cameras or matching cameras.

                    In some cases you want your cameras to be "matching cameras", such as when doing multi camera coverage of wedding ceremony or doing an interview. Such as 2x GH4 to cover the wide of the interview and the close up, or one to cover the interviewer himself and another on the person being interviewed.

                    But in most cases you want your cameras to be complementary instead. As you need to view each camera body as merely one kind of tool in your box of tricks. So when you go out on a shoot, you can pick the best tool for the job.

                    Thus for cameras to be complementary, you want one camera to cover the weaknesses of the other, and in the reverse too.

                    For instance GH4 + BMPCC:

                    96fps vs 30fps
                    Compressed vs raw
                    Photos vs n/a
                    4K vs 1080

                    Or A7s vs BMPCC:

                    FF vs S16
                    Amazing low light vs so so low light
                    Compress vs raw

                    You can see how in each case, one does well in covering some of the weaknesses of the other camera.

                    Thus you can see how for many people getting a BMCC and BMPCC makes no sense at all really, as they're two very similar cameras.
                    So this only makes sense if you're looking for two "matching cameras" rather than two "complementary cameras", or if you already have a BMCC and you want the BMPCC to just cover for the big weakness of the BMCC: its bulky size.

                    I really wouldn't recommend the BMPC4K at the moment, URSA Mini 4K is just around the corner for the same price and is better in every way.

                    What I'd suggest is getting a Samsung NX1 right now (or any one of the currently top three hybrid cameras: Samsung NX1 / Sony A7s / Panasonic GH4. But I reckon the NX1 is the best of the 3 at the moment) and a set of Nikon F mount lenses. Then when the USRA Mini ships (and "if" it gets the favorable reviews we're all expecting) get that as well. You'll have a killer combo of two cameras able to cover a wide range of needs. Don't worry that the URSA Mini is still a few months away from shipping, as having the Samsung NX1 to start with is still a phenomenal camera, and when you're just starting out your equipment really isn't your limiting factor just yet. As gear has got so good and so affordable.

                    If you lean towards doing a lot more multi camera work (such as weddings) than single camera, then I'd suggest instead starting out with a Panasonic GH4 for you, plus Panasonic G7 for your second shooter (your second shooter might supply their own camera, but even if they do, it is best if their camera matches well with your own. Makes life easier in post), and 3x Panasonic GH1 bodies (which go for merely US$150 on eBay, and still are quite damn fine cameras! Does miles better than any Canon Rebel series DSLR shoots) to cover the multiple extra angles during the ceremony and speeches. Then once they ship, pick up a BMMCC and BMD VA for your single camera work (music videos / adverts / short films / etc). Or get a BMPCC if you simply can't wait for that.
                    Last edited by IronFilm; 05-18-2015, 10:38 AM.
                    https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good points, ironfilm. I would also recommend to test the cameras one would potentially buy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Kodakmoment After writing that lengthy post I felt it was even worthy of spinning out into is own blog post.....
                        http://ironfilm.co.nz/how-to-pick-a-...more-than-one/
                        https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IronFilm View Post
                          When buying multiple cameras there are two key ways to look at it:

                          Complementary cameras or matching cameras.

                          In some cases you want your cameras to be "matching cameras", such as when doing multi camera coverage of wedding ceremony or doing an interview. Such as 2x GH4 to cover the wide of the interview and the close up, or one to cover the interviewer himself and another on the person being interviewed.

                          But in most cases you want your cameras to be complementary instead. As you need to view each camera body as merely one kind of tool in your box of tricks. So when you go out on a shoot, you can pick the best tool for the job.

                          Thus for cameras to be complementary, you want one camera to cover the weaknesses of the other, and in the reverse too.

                          For instance GH4 + BMPCC:

                          96fps vs 30fps
                          Compressed vs raw
                          Photos vs n/a
                          4K vs 1080

                          Or A7s vs BMPCC:

                          FF vs S16
                          Amazing low light vs so so low light
                          Compress vs raw

                          You can see how in each case, one does well in covering some of the weaknesses of the other camera.

                          Thus you can see how for many people getting a BMCC and BMPCC makes no sense at all really, as they're two very similar cameras.
                          So this only makes sense if you're looking for two "matching cameras" rather than two "complementary cameras", or if you already have a BMCC and you want the BMPCC to just cover for the big weakness of the BMCC: its bulky size.

                          I really wouldn't recommend the BMPC4K at the moment, URSA Mini 4K is just around the corner for the same price and is better in every way.

                          What I'd suggest is getting a Samsung NX1 right now (or any one of the currently top three hybrid cameras: Samsung NX1 / Sony A7s / Panasonic GH4. But I reckon the NX1 is the best of the 3 at the moment) and a set of Nikon F mount lenses. Then when the USRA Mini ships (and "if" it gets the favorable reviews we're all expecting) get that as well. You'll have a killer combo of two cameras able to cover a wide range of needs. Don't worry that the URSA Mini is still a few months away from shipping, as having the Samsung NX1 to start with is still a phenomenal camera, and when you're just starting out your equipment really isn't your limiting factor just yet. As gear has got so good and so affordable.

                          If you lean towards doing a lot more multi camera work (such as weddings) than single camera, then I'd suggest instead starting out with a Panasonic GH4 for you, plus Panasonic G7 for your second shooter (your second shooter might supply their own camera, but even if they do, it is best if their camera matches well with your own. Makes life easier in post), and 3x Panasonic GH1 bodies (which go for merely US$150 on eBay, and still are quite damn fine cameras! Does miles better than any Canon Rebel series DSLR shoots) to cover the multiple extra angles during the ceremony and speeches. Then once they ship, pick up a BMMCC and BMD VA for your single camera work (music videos / adverts / short films / etc). Or get a BMPCC if you simply can't wait for that.

                          I consider "full frame" to be a major disadvantage when choosing a camera for cinema work. Not only does it give unrealistic depth of field, but it becomes very difficult to shoot close ups without owning either a super telephoto lens, or sticking the camera right in your actors face. A S16 sensor with a focal reducer gives a much closer feel to S35 than the oversized super wide 135 size sensor.

                          To answer the OPs question, I'd go with a 4k PC and Pocket Cam, and here is why. While the 2.5k CC will give you a better image than the 4k PC, the reality is a lot of clients out there are enamored by easily digestible stats, such as pixel count, and for no reason other than "4k is more k, must be better" will be looking to hire someone who owns a 4k camera.

                          The pocket will give you a fantastic image as well, and a lot of flexibility in picking up affordable vintage lenses. It's hands down one of the top values out there today.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Very true! So called "full frame" is a disadvantage for many people. I'm one of those who believe a sensor in the size range of S35 to S16 range is the ideal size for indie productions.

                            Case could be made for other points too, another person might find raw a disadvantage (shock! Horror!) and prefer compressed instead.

                            Note, you can do back and replace what I just said for "people" with "shoots" instead. Thus my core point about complementary cameras, there is no "one size fits all" camera. Thus picking different cameras, while I don't prefer FF, I known having a FF camera at hand would be an additional "tool in my kit".

                            BMPCC and BMPC4K have too much of an overlap in their similarities, they don't bring enough to the table together.

                            BMPCC with GH4 (or NX1) covers more options, and is cheaper too.
                            Last edited by IronFilm; 05-23-2015, 09:12 PM.
                            https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I found an article about differences among those cameras: http://www.4kshooters.net/2014/12/01...dr-comparison/. The author inclined to choosing panasonic GH4 for its long history and better performance.

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