Is it time for a new cinema camera vendor to come on board?

[EYu]

With Blackmagic unreliable and arrogant marketing strategy, more broadcast focused, and minimal communications with customers, there is a void and opportunity for a new player that can catapult to low price point cinema cameras. One of the I think is Kinefinity... With sales distribution in the USA and Europe, it might just give BMD a run for their money, improve themselves, and we have cheaper cameras. I am thinking of investigating such opportunity with the Chinese based manufacturer.

[DPStewart]

Kinefinity has been threatening to do this for years now...and I think their cameras are good. But I've never heard of anyone owning one, and they just don't seem determined to make much of a presence here in the USA anyway.

[ugafan]

With Blackmagic unreliable and arrogant marketing strategy, more broadcast focused, and minimal communications with customers

i haven't been keeping up with all the news, what have they done recently that has upset you?

there is a void and opportunity for a new player that can catapult to low price point cinema cameras.

unfortunately i don't see it happening. well at least not what i would consider a low price (sub 2k). the profit margins are too small.

[Nomad]

Kinefinity has quite low profile here in Germany too. I once saw an article in an amateurish magazine that was more or less translating their announcements and that's it.

I tried to get a sample for review, but they didn't even bother to answer (I'm regularly writing for a very respected German magazine called "Digital Production").

[polaroid22]

Blackmagic is still king. Loving the ursa mini pro. I thought a long time about the kinefinity, but their communication is 1000X worse then blackmagic. I have asked 10 questions, had to wait months to get an answer. There is also no side by side with another camera test available. One guy did a side by side with a RED camera, and he lost the footage he claims. Could be true, or the red is blowing the terra away. So bad support(shipment China), Customs, no communication, no good community is what made me to not get the terra and get the UMP instead.

[gamingkingx]

Kinifinity is coming along nicely. With the Terra i think other manufactorers could have big problems. They did the correct thing with their mount. They made their own with ultra short flance distance. This means that there are adapters for EF, EF with speedbooster, EF with Electronic ND (like FS5/FS7II), PL and now E-mount. I also like that they made it like RED in modularity. Its a rather small camera with just the screen and sidegrip on, and the internal grip batteri can last 1-2 hours and for a lot of stuff i make, that would be fine. And it records to SSD's.. Not dual cards like Ursa cameras (which I don't think BMD get enough credit for), but still... It keeps the price down, eventough i like CFast better as they are smaller in the pocket for a one man band, docu-cine shooter.

The problem for Kinifinity is support/service/communication.. BMD is rather good at this eventhough people say something else.. I think they expect something that would never happen.

But the fact that BMD cameras go so nice hand in hand with studio/live is good. The market for live boardcasting is expanding rapidly so it makes sense.

I would never have bought a KineMAX or KineMINI or some of their "older" cameras (they are too a very young company compared to a lot of manufactors), but as said, the Terra looks very promising and with the 5K switchable global/rolling shutter sensor (that BMD never did) it looks nice. I like BMD/Ursa4.6K color better though.

Do we need a new cinema camera manufactorer?.. No, i wouldn't say so.. The problem is, if there are too many players on the field the field gets spread rather thin and i don't think that there are room for that many.

[innerspark]

Competition is always good for the consumer, but I reckon getting into the camera manufacturing business is anything but easy.

[EYu]

Thanks for all the feedback folks. It's an exploratory concept that I thonot ught of getting input here which I am. I personally don't have issues with BMD products but their overall communication and strategy is one sided, mostly benefiting them. Opening the market to competition is good for us. Yes it drives thin margin but economy of scales will also drive down sensor prices, hence cheaper cameras. Right now, BMD monopoly on low price cameras allows them to dictate what we get and how we get it. It's like when the Apple II first came out, and then when the IBM PC came out, it democratize and revolutionize the PC clone market. What was a $6K computer is now a $200 computer. Digital cameras (including digital cinema cameras) are no different. The basics are the same. The [color] science, IQ from sensor type, and processing performance may be different but companies like BMD, RED, Kinefinity, etc. all have got it down.
Yes, I agree Kine is bad communicating as well and this is really driven by how they do business. However, if acquired and managed correctly and streamlined, I think they have competitive camera models and design. We shall see. But going back to my original point, maybe we just need other vendors to democratize the cinema camera manufacturing industry. That will be good for the professional consumers.

[John Brawley]

If this is true then someone would already be doing it wouldn't they ?

Many have tried to make a camera and failed. It's amazing that Blackmagic have done what they have achieved, because many more prestigious and experienced have failed miserably.

I know you're pissed about the Ursa turrets, but I bet if you set up a petition and got Ursa owners to post their serial number and a request to get a 4.6K turret you'd get a couple of hundred signers.

It's a business. They've at least stayed in business and actually had some success when many others haven't trying to do the same thing.

It's insanely expensive to develop and cinema camera users are the most difficult market to please.

Let's look at some other companies making cinema cameras...

Digital Bolex ?
Ikonoscope ?
Craft ?
Aaton - went broke trying to make a camera.
Panavision (they've attempted to release two cameras as a Genesis successor and shelved them, and at the last min came up with the DXL, which is really a panavised RED)
Dalsa - actually were doing 4K cameras before RED and make their own sensors and couldn't make it work
AJA - Cion was based on the same sensor used in the Ursa. Imagine if you'd spent 15K+ buying that one. You can STILL buy one massively discounted from their launch price to around 5K today. Pretty sure to do RAW it needs an external recorder, which last time I looked, they didn't make yet.
Silicon Imaging Si2K - Their very first cinema camera shot the first film to win a cinematography Oscar on a primarily shot digital camera, beating even the Alexa. They never made another cinema camera.
GoPro - Looked like when they bought Cineform (what REDCODE is based on) they had some ambition, but they're struggling and didn't do anything...
Apertus - Open source cinema camera concept. Free love and vibes based on the same 4K sensor as Cion. Still waiting...

The market for cinema cameras is way smaller than you think it is. Even Alexa's, a very very successful camera, I would be amazed if there were more than ten thousand that have ever been made in all variants.

The market for live event, broadcast is far bigger and far easier to please.

Kinefinity have been around for a while but have never ever cut though.

If the market existed then it would be happening. DJI will be your best bet maybe.... but I bet the market for drones FAR FAR exceeds the market for users of high end cameras like us. It would come as adjunct to their drone business.

You have every right to hate the way they operate as a company, but they're few that can match what they do and still be in business.

JB

[EdenMedia]

To add to what JB said, it's also very likely BMD is running into constraints imposed by the laws of physics. How do you deal with the heat of the sensor in a package the size of the BMPCC? Just because one sensor can do it, doesn't mean another physically can.