Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chroma Moire Removal Techniques and Solutions

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by CaptainHook View Post

    I don't think Neat Video did too badly.. i was really sure how it would do as i've never used it for this purpose. Maybe it's not as good as Noise Ninja but i would be interested to see both in Motion. Personally i think Neat Video is good to have, get the Premiere version as i found out the hard way that the After Effects version renders at least 4x slower (it's an after effects problem rather than the plugin) as i own both. Hope that helps Kholi
    Thanks for that, Cap. That's literally what I needed to see. I'm curious about what it would do in motion as well, but I would also want to test various different patterns and see if I can recreate the "oil slick" moire that we got on one shot a few months ago.

    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

    Comment


    • #32
      No probs, just let me know if you've got any more frames or a sequence you want me to test.
      Blackmagic Design
      My BMD LUTs.

      **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Kholi View Post
        I thought this entire thread was about noise reduction to remove chroma aliasing/moire in either application to begin with? =[ What is going on? Am I eating too much Del Taco or am I really getting old? Can someone help me decipher where the miscommunication is?

        That's exactly what I slammed the Noise Ninja slider to 100... I don't know how to be anymore clear about this. Sorry, man.



        Okay, great, that's the solution you want. Send more emails, in the meantime at least a few of us will see where this goes.
        Moire is not noise. Its a fixed bayer pattern of the sensors inability to resolve luminance and chroma pattern. Not signal noise. I just showed you how to reduce WITHOUT any NOISE reduction.

        See where it goes as much as you want. Use neat video all you want. the LR "quick" method I posted is about as easy as it gets.
        I'm starting to think Kholi, that you are the one that is confused. Again, look up the Betterlight back. Look up Phase one backs. Look up Hassy backs. I've used them all long before you probably ever understood or heard of RAW imaging. I've conquered many RAW workflows and have run into Moire' before you probably even picked a camera up dude.

        If anyone is combative Kholi, in this thread... It is you. I told you how and why Photo Ninja is reducing the chroma moire'. It's their ancient old plug in called Noise Ninja, which is now on V3 of the plug. Go ahead, go back into Photo ninja and "UNCLICK" the Noise ninja tab box and see what happens. Then click it again, and e-mail them for the two week trial license. THEN, export a shot with 4500 frames and TIME IT. Then, YOU will UNDERSTAND what I am TALKING about.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by dustylense View Post
          Moire is not noise. Its a fixed bayer pattern of the sensors inability to resolve luminance and chroma pattern. Not signal noise. I just showed you how to reduce WITHOUT any NOISE reduction.

          See where it goes as much as you want. Use neat video all you want. the LR "quick" method I posted is about as easy as it gets.
          I'm starting to think Kholi, that you are the one that is confused. Again, look up the Betterlight back. Look up Phase one backs. Look up Hassy backs. I've used them all long before you probably ever understood or heard of RAW imaging. I've conquered many RAW workflows and have run into Moire' before you probably even picked a camera up dude.

          If anyone is combative Kholi, in this thread... It is you. I told you how and why Photo Ninja is reducing the chroma moire'. It's their ancient old plug in called Noise Ninja, which is now on V3 of the plug. Go ahead, go back into Photo ninja and "UNCLICK" the Noise ninja tab box and see what happens. Then click it again, and e-mail them for the two week trial license. THEN, export a shot with 4500 frames and TIME IT. Then, YOU will UNDERSTAND what I am TALKING about.
          Ah, now I get what this is about. You want to "teach" me something. You have succeeded, but not the lesson that you were going for. But, again, so we're very clear:

          Originally posted by Kholi View Post
          Can you isolate only color noise in Resolve 9 or is it an all in one?

          After reading that thread where the guy saw moire in R9 but not LR4, I tried LR4 on a shot with moire in it and it the color noise reduction killed the minor amounts in hair that usually bug the crap out of me.


          That is the first post in the thread. I know exactly what Moire and Aliasing comes from, it has no baring on what this thread is about. I saw a post from another user about his LR4 vs R9 experience, he didn't realize that LR4 had filtered out the color aliasing/moire in his footage, because it's defaulted. It sincerely doesn't matter WHAT or WHY, it only matters that it WORKS.

          The time doesn't matter, you've clearly never actually sat down with 5K R3Ds and no Rocket, round tripping. But, I understand the point-and-shoot nature of some jobs, and the background of pre-processed images as well. In those environments people expect things to happen on the spot. Either which way.

          So, again, to be clear: I think we all understood what was going on from the beginning, which is why Andrew etc. offered up the suggestions. This thread is about that circumstance, and how it can be used to correct a flaw right now, not later.

          At the moment, it's becoming another useless thread where one or two people recount the days of shooting RAW stills. Thanks for that.

          SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
          Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

          Comment


          • #35
            If you want an idea of render time for Neat Video, on my system in Premiere it seems to take about 3-4 times the length of the program - which is based off roughly 3-minute-long music videos in H264 with Neat Video applied to every frame taking roughly 10-12 minutes to render. Not that bad. A less compressed codec should be quicker (i still need to test). A feature length you might want to leave to render over night, but i doubt you'd be applying it globally and instead just be fixing necessary frames etc.. and i'm not sure how this would compare to the speed of say Noise Ninja in PhotoNinja (although i would like to know if someone has an idea??).

            Of course this single frame in Neat Video seemed to happen instantly and as soon as i pressed export.
            Blackmagic Design
            My BMD LUTs.

            **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

            Comment


            • #36
              Photo Ninja is looking like a very interesting option for RAW post. My guess on why it is handling moire so well is due to how it deals with CA. Check out example #2 in the link below. It corrects CA before debayering, which leads to a cleaner rendered image.

              http://www.picturecode.com/showcase/ca.php
              Last edited by RyGuy; 02-10-2013, 01:58 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Just read this, regarding the Noise Ninja plugin for Photoshop:

                "Customer support for Noise Ninja is still available by email -- see the Support page. However, we will not be making further updates to the software. Photo Ninja includes better noise reduction technology, and we will providing a Photoshop plug-in for Photo Ninja in the upcoming V1.1 release."

                A PS plugin for Photo Ninja. Sounds cool.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by RobertJ View Post
                  PhotoNinja is pretty cool... can't quite get the highlights to look like the 2010 version of ACR (my favorite) with the highlight recovery, but it seems you can have all the noise smoothed while still having detail sharpened. It must be doing some voodoo magic or something!

                  Also interesting, is that the BMC files in PhotoNinja are 2432 x 1366 pixels, not 2400 x 1350.
                  I totally agree with you about the highlights. PhotoNinja doesn't handle them very well.

                  I've heard that many raw converters will crop the image slightly to get a more accurate debayer. That way they're not using black pixels to figure out what colors the edge pixels are. Sounds good, but I've seen a couple programs that give the full resolution and it looks fine to me. I know it's a small difference, but I want all of the pixels! I wouldn't mind at least having the choice.

                  Are you guys also using the enhanced(slower) Demosaic method in PhotoNinja?
                  www.motionplaces.com
                  andrewjulian

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                    I totally agree with you about the highlights. PhotoNinja doesn't handle them very well.

                    I've heard that many raw converters will crop the image slightly to get a more accurate debayer. That way they're not using black pixels to figure out what colors the edge pixels are. Sounds good, but I've seen a couple programs that give the full resolution and it looks fine to me. I know it's a small difference, but I want all of the pixels! I wouldn't mind at least having the choice.

                    Are you guys also using the enhanced(slower) Demosaic method in PhotoNinja?
                    I tried the enhanced, couldn't see a difference but again, I think someone that really knows what to look for should try it. The pattern on the backpack is really fine, and I do know for sure that at least it still remains the exact same pattern in the PhotoNinja image after the chroma noise reduction. That was for a still, not motion, again.

                    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Kholi View Post
                      I tried the enhanced, couldn't see a difference but again, I think someone that really knows what to look for should try it. The pattern on the backpack is really fine, and I do know for sure that at least it still remains the exact same pattern in the PhotoNinja image after the chroma noise reduction. That was for a still, not motion, again.
                      Post the backpack DNG file for download Kholi. Or better yet, shoot a more complex moire scene or a few of them that multiple users can mess around with and post back here for results.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CaptainHook View Post
                        If you want an idea of render time for Neat Video, on my system in Premiere it seems to take about 3-4 times the length of the program - which is based off roughly 3-minute-long music videos in H264 with Neat Video applied to every frame taking roughly 10-12 minutes to render. Not that bad. A less compressed codec should be quicker (i still need to test). A feature length you might want to leave to render over night, but i doubt you'd be applying it globally and instead just be fixing necessary frames etc.. and i'm not sure how this would compare to the speed of say Noise Ninja in PhotoNinja (although i would like to know if someone has an idea??).

                        Of course this single frame in Neat Video seemed to happen instantly and as soon as i pressed export.
                        I'm waiting to hear back from BMD about R9 being capable of doing any of this kind of work. But, I will probably email for a trial license and explore more. Problem is that I don't have a camera and still have to go and grab someone else's to do tests. =P You're right, however, that you would only have to do certain shots. In the case of say an interview where the tighter camera's getting a lot of moire, then that camera might have to be fixed before color, but after a final cut.

                        It sounds like Neat Video's render times have improved! Even still, cheap, good, fast... =X Pick two, right?

                        SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                        Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion? It would seem to be a fool's errand by the time you start using a brush mask to create an exact outline that needs to be tracked perfectly to the image. It does make you really appreciate the power of Resolve though, right?

                          I've also found that the moire brush at 100 desaturates the image too much. You might want to try a lower setting. In your example the whole right side of the image seems to be monochrome after your adjustment.

                          The reality is that LR was made for stills, and your methods for processing stills in it might not be the most practical when dealing with motion. Kholi seems to be in an experimental and open minded mood, trying to find the best possible way to process his images even if it's not the fastest possible method. Striving for excellence in a field you're passionate about is something I have truckloads of respect for.
                          www.motionplaces.com
                          andrewjulian

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                            Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion? It would seem to be a fool's errand by the time you start using a brush mask to create an exact outline that needs to be tracked perfectly to the image. It does make you really appreciate the power of Resolve though, right?

                            I've also found that the moire brush at 100 desaturates the image too much. You might want to try a lower setting. In your example the whole right side of the image seems to be monochrome after your adjustment.

                            The reality is that LR was made for stills, and your methods for processing stills in it might not be the most practical when dealing with motion. Kholi seems to be in an experimental and open minded mood, trying to find the best possible way to process his images even if it's not the fastest possible method. Striving for excellence in a field you're passionate about is something I have truckloads of respect for.
                            I already did a test last night were the moire shows up like it typically does, for a second or two. I tested on a floor dolly shot. Just found the frames that had moire and did brushes for that set of frames. Copy, sync, copy sync. Took 5 minutes to do the work but like I said, any of these processes are going to take a while to export into a tiff sequence.
                            If on a static scene, pretty darn simple.

                            I only mentioned brush stocke at 100, so that first time users see it transform. Of course slide to what the shot needs. My shot was brush at 65 and the color slider at 100. No physical noise reduction used at all like Neatvideo.

                            I also played with Photo Ninja some more. Sorry guys, It's a POS. Just like their plug ins were. You can't even apply a curve. No curve, no dice...You can't even go linear...
                            Last edited by dustylense; 02-10-2013, 11:46 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by dustylense View Post

                              I also played with Photo Ninja some more. Sorry guys, It's a POS.
                              It's comments like this that lead me to not value your opinion much.

                              You mean after playing around with it for a few minutes you find it to not be nearly as good as the app you've used for years? Shocking!

                              Nobody's saying it's a LR replacement, but I am saying that it can produce great results! Even better than LR for some shots imo. That's my approach to it. I'm looking for what it does extremely well and not looking just for it's faults. I think you'll find it could be a useful addition to your raw workflow (especially stills) if you try that approach. I've read many reviews of the app by professional photographers and that's the conclusion many of them come to.

                              It's a V1 app by a small company. Nobody's expecting it to blow the giant out of the water.
                              www.motionplaces.com
                              andrewjulian

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                                Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion?
                                You can apply your Lightroom brush adjustments to your footage. You just have to import into After Effects. Where you can then apply NeatVideo also if you so choose.

                                Jon7athan Studios

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X