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  • Chroma Moire Removal Techniques and Solutions

    Can you isolate only color noise in Resolve 9 or is it an all in one?

    After reading that thread where the guy saw moire in R9 but not LR4, I tried LR4 on a shot with moire in it and it the color noise reduction killed the minor amounts in hair that usually bug the crap out of me.

    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

  • #2
    unless i'm clueless at resolve, which i might be, i believe the NR is just all in one. you can blend it back with the original image, but it's nothing like the color and luminance noise controls in ACR

    I think ACR does this spectacularly and have been really thrilled with the results when I toyed around with some of the raw stuff i shot. I'd love to see this control in a future version of resolve. maybe peter c will chime in on this, or someone with more experience dealing with NR in resolve.

    I've heard quite a few times that people just do their NR outside of resolve in things such as neat video or whatever, where you can separate color and luminance noise, and that they do their NR before or after the coloring session. this seems like a huge pain in the ass for most applications though

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    • #3
      These are the NR controls in the full version of Resolve (ignore the YRGB values above):



      Granted it's node based so you can use all the usual qualifiers/power windows/etc to control where it happens but there doesn't seem to be anyway to do anything else that i know of. Admittedly, i still haven't even tried it since i've owned Neat Video Pro for over a year now.
      Blackmagic Design
      My BMD LUTs.

      **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

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      • #4
        How does Neatvideo do for the moire??? Did you try it out?

        SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
        Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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        • #5
          No i haven't - point me to the DNG frame you want me to test and i'll do it tonight for you.
          Blackmagic Design
          My BMD LUTs.

          **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

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          • #6
            You might want to try PhotoNinja by Picure Code.

            http://www.picturecode.com/index.php

            It's an interesting and very high quality raw converter. You can change the debayer method to one that is more suited for cameras with weak AA filters. They also have Noise Ninja built in, which seems to be a great NR tool.

            I think it's just awesome that this camera uses an open raw format! Being able to use different programs to get different looks is great and I really do feel that each raw converter has it's own look. You can definitely get similar results from each of them, but there are also times when you get a certain look that just can't be recreated by another converter.

            Photo Ninja is definitely one to check out.

            I know processing footage through programs made for stills is a huge pain, but it's been fun for me just to see the variation you get from different methods.
            www.motionplaces.com
            andrewjulian

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            • #7
              Thanks Andrew, that looks pretty cool. I doubt it outputs to anything like DPX or such haha. But I'll give it a try.

              Have you messed with it at all for moire?

              SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
              Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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              • #8
                I've only played with the demo, but I did try one shot that had some moire and it definitely helped.
                www.motionplaces.com
                andrewjulian

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                • #9
                  This may be way off topic. Has anyone seen this video where the author is using reverse proxies to bring his CinemaDNG files into Premiere Pro & After Effects? He even pulls up the RAW converter in After Effects. You could theoretically use the Noise Reduction processing of Adobe Camera Raw on your CinemaDNG files this way without converting to TIFF or PSDs.

                  CinemaDNG Round Tripping

                  Copying metadata to a CinemaDNG sequence for import to After Effects. No TIFF or PSD conversion.

                  Cinema DNG: Using Lightroom and After Effects
                  Last edited by Jon7athan; 02-06-2013, 12:06 AM.
                  Jon7athan Studios

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                  • #10
                    PhotoNinja is pretty cool... can't quite get the highlights to look like the 2010 version of ACR (my favorite) with the highlight recovery, but it seems you can have all the noise smoothed while still having detail sharpened. It must be doing some voodoo magic or something!

                    Also interesting, is that the BMC files in PhotoNinja are 2432 x 1366 pixels, not 2400 x 1350.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Andrew View Post
                      You might want to try PhotoNinja by Picure Code.

                      http://www.picturecode.com/index.php

                      It's an interesting and very high quality raw converter. You can change the debayer method to one that is more suited for cameras with weak AA filters. They also have Noise Ninja built in, which seems to be a great NR tool.

                      I think it's just awesome that this camera uses an open raw format! Being able to use different programs to get different looks is great and I really do feel that each raw converter has it's own look. You can definitely get similar results from each of them, but there are also times when you get a certain look that just can't be recreated by another converter.

                      Photo Ninja is definitely one to check out.

                      I know processing footage through programs made for stills is a huge pain, but it's been fun for me just to see the variation you get from different methods.

                      I finally got a chance to try this out with a DNG that had a fair amount of moire in it. The subject was a fine pattern (think jeans or backpack), the moire was pretty obvious.

                      Lightroom, Resolve, and PhotoNinja all look the same to my eyes as far as debayering goes. But someone with a more analytical view on this should do comparisons.

                      LR4's chroma noise reduction removed a fair amount of the chroma aliasing/moire but still left something to be desired.

                      PhotoNinja, however, removed damned near one-hundred percent of the chroma aliasing/moire and I sincerely cannot tell if it's impacting overall detail. Like, there's no moire whatsoever. Unfortunately, I can't export the actual DNG or a full res JPEG because I do not have a license, but here are screenshots from PhotoNinja, before and after. his was "test" footage from last November so Moire COULD be improved in the new firmware, I don't know how that would work but:

                      Before PhotoNinja, DNG straight out of camera, 28/1.8 Canon I think:


                      After PhotoNinja Noise Ninja Reduction, Chroma all the way to the right, detail slider at 0:


                      Click either photo for a larger PNG screenshot and judge for yourself.

                      I can also send this DNG for someone to try chroma reduction in Resolve. If Resolve 9 can do this just with chroma noise reduction* then I think my final issue with this camera is ... well... resolved.




                      *I understand that this is not a moving set of images, and that may also have an effect on how it works in Resolve 9. I would rather do everything in Resolve, to be honest, as the other software do not export DPX or similar. =[

                      SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                      Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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                      • #12
                        Links fixed, sorry about that.

                        SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                        Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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                        • #13
                          Or.... We can call Mosaic Eng. and have them make a filter and stay in Resolve.

                          When I first heard the BMC was offering DNG I thought, "Great, I can process in LR which I've processed 10's of thousands of RAW's in". Yeah, for STILLS. I suppose if you had a shot that had moire you could process it in LR. But doing the whole job is LR is out of the question for me. Too slow of a workflow.

                          However, I am a self described expert of LR and a total wet behind the ears guy in Resolve. In LM, you could use the "local brush" (shortcut is K) which has a moire slider. paint the affected area and then sync the rest of the DNG's up, export as TIFF (with LPM compression to speed it up) and DO NOT APPLY SHARPENING or NOISE reduction and then LM will be a bit faster in the export. Sharpen and NR in your NLE.
                          Last edited by dustylense; 02-09-2013, 07:46 PM.

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                          • #14
                            I think I'm in the majority that says "Sure, but if we don't have to modify the camera, why should we?" If there's another way, won't hurt to find it.

                            Don't care if it's an extra hour of post processing time, do care if the Mosaic filter a. reduces too much detail and b. compromises color.

                            There are a lot of things that can change from a filter.

                            Anyone who's actually up to finding solutions other than the hardware mod (whenever that may come around), this is the thread for that.

                            SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                            Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

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                            • #15
                              Done in LR with the local adjustment brush with moire slider at 100. Took 20 secs.

                              Pdi shoot_tb_2013-02-06_1018_C0000_000261.jpg
                              Pdi shoot_tb_2013-02-06_1018_C0000_000261-2.jpg
                              Pdi shoot_tb_2013-02-07_1246_C0024_000255.jpg
                              Pdi shoot_tb_2013-02-07_1246_C0024_000255-2.jpg

                              Now on the second shot you will see that the logo got greyed up. This is where you use the local brush mask tool to help on that.

                              Pdi shoot_tb_2013-02-07_1246_C0024_000255-3.jpg

                              Or THE EASIEST WAY: you could just use the "color" slider under the "detail" section of LM, but that will leave you with a faint pattern of B&W moire (kind of the a Gh2 look). In either case, leave sharpening at zero and NR at zero to speed up the export of the 1000 or so shots you are exporting.
                              Export as TIFF into a new folder, bring into resolve and resolve will see it as an image sequence, then export to your edit codec of choice.

                              I'd rather just have a VAF from Mosaic Engineering.
                              Last edited by dustylense; 02-09-2013, 08:32 PM.

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