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Helium 8K s35 sensor from RED

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  • #31
    How do you see the "rounder pixels" on a monitor with square pixels?
    Besides the fact, that we are talking a Bayer sensor, where the final pixels (and colors) are generated from a black and white raw file in post.
    Everybody who is aware of the debayer process knows, there are no "round pixels".
    And can you tell me, what color is the space between those "round pixels"?
    Blog: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

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    • #32
      Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
      And I can create an 8K CG image and compare that and it will tell me nothing about what an 8K R3D file looks like. All I'm trying to point out is that sometimes there is a rush to judgement without any actual footage in hand, and not only critical judgement but also praise. Resolution is just one component. It's the sum of all the parts that will define the final IQ. You may not agree with the assessment that the image is smoother based on rounder pixels but my only counterpoint is that it would be prudent to make that judgement based on looking at an 8K R3D. Then you will be able to compare that to 6k, 4k, 4.6k(ursa) digital cinema footage to see if there are improvements.
      You shouldn't act as though you are not giving up dynamic range, by going 8k. The Red dragon has 5 micron photosites, an 8k 24mm wide sensor would have about 3 microns. That is 25/9= 2.777 times less area to adsorb photons, or around 1.4 stops loss in light input per photosite. To equal the Red dragon's DR, you need 1.4 stops better performance in sensitivity, which is no small task. If they have this new technology, why not go with 5 micron photosites for 1.4 stops better than Dragon DR.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Frank Glencairn View Post
        How do you see the "rounder pixels" on a monitor with square pixels?
        Besides the fact, that we are talking a Bayer sensor, where the final pixels (and colors) are generated from a black and white raw file in post.
        Everybody who is aware of the debayer process knows, there are no "round pixels".
        And can you tell me, what color is the space between those "round pixels"?
        I'm saying, don't get hung up on the round pixels part of this. It's more about what the extra resolution might provide in terms of the overall IQ. For VFX I would imagine it would be a huge improvement when dealing with edges and getting cleaner VFX shots. No matter how you look at it, we're still dealing with pixels on a grid. But I do believe that by quadrupling the pixels you should get a "smoother" image.
        I love the BMPCC for what it is. But the reality is that I can only push that camera so far for certain types of VFX shots. The resolution, aliasing, etc all start to play a factor.
        But, even though 8K on paper should provide a lot of improvement, I reserve judgement of the overall image quality until I see it first hand on a calibrated display/projection.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by d shay View Post
          You shouldn't act as though you are not giving up dynamic range, by going 8k. The Red dragon has 5 micron photosites, an 8k 24mm wide sensor would have about 3 microns. That is 25/9= 2.777 times less area to adsorb photons, or around 1.4 stops loss in light input per photosite. To equal the Red dragon's DR, you need 1.4 stops better performance in sensitivity, which is no small task. If they have this new technology, why not go with 5 micron photosites for 1.4 stops better than Dragon DR.
          How did I act like that? The only point I've really made here is that it's premature to judge any of RED's 8K footage.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Frank Glencairn View Post
            How do you see the "rounder pixels" on a monitor with square pixels?
            Besides the fact, that we are talking a Bayer sensor, where the final pixels (and colors) are generated from a black and white raw file in post.
            Everybody who is aware of the debayer process knows, there are no "round pixels".
            And can you tell me, what color is the space between those "round pixels"?
            you dont actually see the pixels, haha. but you start with a rounder form that creates smoothness, that's what gives film its quality. you can see the difference with film and video right? well, there lies the difference, the rounder the pixels, the smoother the image, no matter if you are seeing in digital later. im no witness to 8k, but what michael from light iron, panavision, arri, kodak and post production colorists and vfx guys say, i believe. ive witnessed it in film.

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            • #36
              Frank, the bottom line is you make beautiful images in whatever format I've seen you shoot. 8K will just give you another tool at your disposal if you need it. It will be useful for projects that need the extra resolution. I did a commercial where the VFX team requested high resolution images for the type of effects they were doing. DP (who was not a big fan of RED) decided he would shoot on RED to give them what they needed. Producers, who had a bias against RED going into the project ended up overriding the DP and mandating Alexa. And for some whacked out reason decided on 2K ProRes. Knowing this was not going to fly with the VFX people, I made sure we also recorded RAW to Gemini recorder. And sure enough, VFX rejected the ProRes and fortunately I bailed out the production with the RAW files which gave them enough to work with. My point being, sometimes, not always, resolution does play a part in all of this. It's not always needed but when it is, you want to be able to have a solution that can deliver. Hopefully, RED's 8K will live up to expectations.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TeddyDem View Post
                Hi Roman,

                You can actually download some DNGs from their website and play around with it in Resolve to get a feel for the footage:

                http://www.kinefinity.tv/support/downloads/
                Thanks, yeah I did this a little while back and poked around with those DNGs.

                Will be interesting to see what the Terra's image will be like.
                Test footage Vimeo page: https://vimeo.com/romanalaivi

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                • #38
                  Hey let's give props to the team for naming it Helium instead of Cobra X or something else an 8 year old boy would come up with. Panavision was probably like "look guys, if we're gonna keep working together this Weapon Scarlet Dragon One X shit ain't working for our marketing department"

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                  • #39
                    i dont think you can bring helium onboard airplanes either, haha!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Howie Roll View Post
                      Hey let's give props to the team for naming it Helium instead of Cobra X or something else an 8 year old boy would come up with. Panavision was probably like "look guys, if we're gonna keep working together this Weapon Scarlet Dragon One X shit ain't working for our marketing department"
                      Kami Mc Camera-Face ?
                      "Senior Member"???... Really???...
                      Not to be taken seriously...by anyone.....

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                      • #41
                        Just an FYI guys, there's a difference between well size and pixel size. Just because the individual pixels are smaller doesn't necessarily mean that the well size is smaller. Plus, sensitivity is defined by more than just well size.

                        Just chill guys; I can't imagine Red would knowingly compromise their sensor design. It's going to look good.

                        [Edit] Before someone says it, obviously a well can't be bigger than a pixel, but I'm just saying that there isn't exactly a linear relationship between pixel size and sensitivity.
                        Last edited by Alex.Mitchell; 07-07-2016, 01:53 PM.

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