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  • #31
    Originally posted by michaelg View Post
    If you compare it to the Pocket as people do because they are both super16, it now has the same dynamic range
    I just ordered one of these things, so I'm obviously not trying to trash it, but I'm still cautious about what it's actual measured DR is. Here's a post from Eddie in the Facebook DB Users' group:

    13450039_1057283484364086_8074321326911753509_n.jpg

    Originally posted by Eddie Barton
    So some of you may remember a while back, Mike and I did a dynamic range test when the camera had just been released. I released an article stating some data based on the processing we had available to us. So I re-did the processing, but this time with Bolex Log. There were still issues with the DNGs as they were recorded on very early firmware.

    I finally figured out how to use the Sekonic software and was able to make a rough graph of the dynamic range using multiple exposures of the Sekonic Exposure Target II.

    It's not the most accurate test like a Xyla-21 or similar, but it gives a good rough estimate. These charts were shot at EI 400, and I was kinda bummed because we didn't get to try 800 because our time was cut short in the studio. But I'm hoping y'all are able to see what kind of range we're talking about. I would say the safe ranges (the green arrows) are fairly accurate. But I'd keep my important highlights a bit lower than that.

    Just thought this would be interesting to some of you who like charts and numbers and stuff. Also, if anyone uses the Sekonic cine meters or one of the ones that can use the DTS software, I can share you the profile so you can upload it to your meter.
    The reason I'm skeptical about these numbers is that even DB only really claims 12.2 stops of dynamic range in their Bolex Log white paper. They're still beautiful images, but I still don't believe that the D16 can capture the same DR as the BMCC or BMPCC.
    Last edited by Alex.Mitchell; 06-29-2016, 07:02 AM.

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    • #32
      Really sorry to see them leave. It's a loss for everyone in digital cinema. The talent and energy they used to create a niche product that made such beautiful imagery is something that few can claim. I know that I chose to go another path but they were always on my radar. I'm grateful for their contributions and wish them well.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Alex.Mitchell View Post
        The reason I'm skeptical about these numbers is that even DB only really claims 12.2 stops of dynamic range in their Bolex Log white paper. They're still beautiful images, but I still don't believe that the D16 can capture the same DR as the BMCC or BMPCC.
        You can get a wide range of numbers using different measuring techniques. Canon and BM officially claim more DR than ARRI yet it is obvious that the Alexa has more DR than the C300II and the 4.6K. The only important metric is usable DR with your specific exposure habits. Half a stop of mush at the bottom is nothing anyway. The Bolex should be fine with ~5 stops above midgrey (provided the shadows aren't too noisy at this rating).
        Shutter Angle: The science and magic of shooting moving pictures

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Alex.Mitchell View Post
          I just ordered one of these things, so I'm obviously not trying to trash it, but I'm still cautious about what it's actual measured DR is.

          The reason I'm skeptical about these numbers is that even DB only really claims 12.2 stops of dynamic range in their Bolex Log white paper. They're still beautiful images, but I still don't believe that the D16 can capture the same DR as the BMCC or BMPCC.
          Thanks for that, I should really join that FB group as even with the demise of the camera it seems to be a great community.

          I see your point, and obviously I'm hopeful but I have yet to see any footage with the new 1.5 firmware. However I've read the white paper and was excited about having control over the colour science in Nuke and other software. I did see some Bolex Log samples from a year ago that looked fantastic though.

          It would be less controversial to say that it has a cleaner 12 stops than the 4k sensor and it can be pushed towards 13. There is no fpn, so the footage could be pushed further in the shadows if you shot a stop under to protect the highlights, for example. I personally also feel it's valid to judiciously apply some Neat Video, but of course you can easily do that with any footage (as long as it has no fpn...).

          I do like the BM global shutter 4k sensor, when shooting raw and going through Resolve the results are nice, the DR is better than ProRes. But the fpn kind of trips it up.

          As cpc pointed it out, what's *usable* dynamic range. if you're getting 12.5 stops out of the D16 with the new colour science, that is probably a smidge off what I imagine is just under 13 stops with the Pocket, but with global shutter and much richer colours and wider colour gamut. I've run the Pocket raw images through an ACES exr workflow from Resolve to Nuke, and was impressed by the fantastic DR for the price, but the image still fell apart in other ways.
          Last edited by michaelg; 06-29-2016, 07:55 AM.

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          • #35
            Once I get my camera in I'm going to try running it through a battery of tests. The big things I'll try to compare it to the BMPCC would be:

            - Performance under tungsten light
            - Performance under daylight
            - Moire/Aliasing issues
            - Effects of compression through SlimRAW
            - Low-Light performance
            - Measurable DR
            - General ease of use

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            • #36
              Alex, I think you'll love the camera. No matter what's released from here on out, DB will still stand apart as one hell of a unique image. We all laughed when the camera first came out, it looked like a toy.

              The image though, can be outright breathtaking. I feel somewhat selfish, in that since I own one, it's the last of a dying breed which will likely never see the light of day again. There's only a few of us out there that can get this look now.

              I mean this color is unreal. The motion, the richness, the overall vibe is amazing imo. It's surely not for everything, but this is the best substitute for film if you need to get as close as possible to that look. You've gotta jump through a few hoops like you would a DSLR to get it up and working for a proper film environment, which can be cumbersome. A lot of the logistical aspects to the camera could be vastly improved. Honestly though.. the image is simply sublime.



              Test footage Vimeo page: https://vimeo.com/romanalaivi

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              • #37
                Thanks Roman! Your thread a while ago was honestly one of the biggest factors that contributed to me wanting to grab one of these. Can't wait to get shooting.

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                • #38
                  Just heard from B&H that I will be getting my MFT D16 in 7-10 days. Hooray!

                  And for all of you BM fan boys n girls, I have been using my two Pockets for two years and am so happy to be done with jello, moire, IR filters, OLPFs and pre-amps and/or external recorders and have a camera that really does look like film - F___ 4K.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mac View Post
                    Just heard from B&H that I will be getting my MFT D16 in 7-10 days. Hooray!

                    And for all of you BM fan boys n girls, I have been using my two Pockets for two years and am so happy to be done with jello, moire, IR filters, OLPFs and pre-amps and/or external recorders and have a camera that really does look like film - F___ 4K.
                    Honestly though, the digital bolex won't replace another good all around performer like the BMCC, URSA etc. It would really benefit you to hang onto one of those. For me, there are so So many times I would never think of using my D16 over any blackmagic camera. I love having both, and there are fantastic opportunities to use both systems depending on the project.

                    Yes, if you shoot right and use good glass, you can get an image that gets close enough to film it'll make your jaw drop. But, dealing with the logistics might be harder than a BMCC with an IR filter etc. Both have their ups and downs. At this point, I'd feel devastated without either camera lol. They both so perfectly capture what I need for any given project, whether that's a commercial thing, or a personal narrative thing.
                    Test footage Vimeo page: https://vimeo.com/romanalaivi

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                    • #40
                      It's a bummer, but from a business point of view not surprising. There's nothing wrong with the product- it's excellent all around (with some trade offs in mind). It's just aimed at such a thin market niche as to always be on the edge of extinction with the slightest of hiccups in the manufacturing or parts supply chain.

                      With firmware 1.5 I was recently able to shoot an event (and edit, color and then turn around and exhibit the final video within 2 hrs to a larger crowd) in ProRes on an Atomos Ninja and it was flat out excellent. That's a job I never would have used the stock D16 shooting in RAW to do. I'm so glad they made 10-bit 4-4-4 over HDMI a viable option with Bolex Log. That alone opened up the D16 to a whole new level of projects where RAW would have been flat out impractical (long record times, quick turn around, no post budget, etc.). While ProRes is clearly not RAW it's still a rich format to edit and color as long as you get the exposure and white balance right in recording. It's that same bit depth as I shot my old F35 with- and my D16 with its CCD sensor is like an F35 in a lightweight form that doesn't require me to own "big" gear for support, lenses, etc.. Not to mention the built in pro audio solution. They may be done making and selling the D16, but I'm gonna be shooting with mine until it falls apart.

                      I mean, until somebody can replicate this look, I am sold on my D16 - and happily so....

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by keithlango View Post
                        It's a bummer, but from a business point of view not surprising. There's nothing wrong with the product- it's excellent all around (with some trade offs in mind). It's just aimed at such a thin market niche as to always be on the edge of extinction with the slightest of hiccups in the manufacturing or parts supply chain.

                        With firmware 1.5 I was recently able to shoot an event (and edit, color and then turn around and exhibit the final video within 2 hrs to a larger crowd) in ProRes on an Atomos Ninja and it was flat out excellent. That's a job I never would have used the stock D16 shooting in RAW to do. I'm so glad they made 10-bit 4-4-4 over HDMI a viable option with Bolex Log. That alone opened up the D16 to a whole new level of projects where RAW would have been flat out impractical (long record times, quick turn around, no post budget, etc.). While ProRes is clearly not RAW it's still a rich format to edit and color as long as you get the exposure and white balance right in recording. It's that same bit depth as I shot my old F35 with- and my D16 with its CCD sensor is like an F35 in a lightweight form that doesn't require me to own "big" gear for support, lenses, etc.. Not to mention the built in pro audio solution. They may be done making and selling the D16, but I'm gonna be shooting with mine until it falls apart.

                        I mean, until somebody can replicate this look, I am sold on my D16 - and happily so....

                        i mean that is beautiful but obviously and shot color graded very nicely, i think any one of my colorists can get the same look out of any BM, Red or Arri footage.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JLdp View Post
                          i mean that is beautiful but obviously and shot color graded very nicely, i think any one of my colorists can get the same look out of any BM, Red or Arri footage.
                          For sure there are definitely some things that can be mimicked in a grade, but other things can't be. I'd say two of the biggest strengths of the DB when compared to a BMCC or BMPCC are a proper OLPF and the global shutter, neither of which can be graded in.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JLdp View Post
                            i mean that is beautiful but obviously and shot color graded very nicely, i think any one of my colorists can get the same look out of any BM, Red or Arri footage.
                            I think that's kinda the point. The D16 has its own unique colors/look, but with the latest firmwares, it's now much easier to achieve a wide range of looks beyond the 70s retro film look that many associated with early footage from the camera. The truth is, now the D16 can be compared quite well with the big boys in terms of color.
                            Eddie Barton

                            My blog where I write about math stuff related to video: https://iaremrsir.wordpress.com/

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                            • #44
                              In my case, I will use the D16 on my own, personal projects, short docs - and probably most TV spots. I will certainly keep my two Pockets and my LS300, because they all have their place - the Pockets particularly because of the ability to shoot ProRes, the JVC because of it's Variable Scan Mapping, which makes any lens more useable.

                              But I've lost some nice footage because of moire on the Pockets, and I've fought banding on the 8bit JVC. My one experience with the D16 (a friend's) shooting a regional TV spot for a college, was so enjoyable I swore I'd own one. I ordered one literally two days before the end of production announcement earlier this week...

                              So, yes, there are places for all sorts of tools (I still have my S16 Aaton LTR7 I bought in 1984). It's a shame one of the viable options has dropped out of the race.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by iaremrsir View Post
                                I think that's kinda the point. The D16 has its own unique colors/look, but with the latest firmwares, it's now much easier to achieve a wide range of looks beyond the 70s retro film look that many associated with early footage from the camera. The truth is, now the D16 can be compared quite well with the big boys in terms of color.
                                I agree with you, iaremsir. When I watch Alexa, Red footage, I think "Great colors! The colorist made an excellent work". Everytime I watch d16 (and ikonoskop) footage, I have the impression that all the colors are the "right" ones, and not simply "wonderful" colors. It's a real shame that the "heritage" of the lovely kodak colors of this sensor will be lost forever. OK, that kai sensors have a limited dynamic range compared to the standards of today, no doubt, but they have a unique look.

                                Green is kodak green, Red is Kodak Red.

                                thank you iaremsir for your huge effort on this legendary camera. I would be happy to see in the next future a minimalist pocket version of digital bolex, who knows, using the same sensor and no display to keep low the costs. In the meanwhile, a new CCD still camera (still, no motion camera) will be released in the next months https://prosophos.com/2016/06/15/ccd...t-coming-soon/

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