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ProND2 Now Avail: Hoya ProND Rolling Report Thread

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  • ProND2 Now Avail: Hoya ProND Rolling Report Thread

    New ProND Set Price here: http://www.kenkodepot.com/products/h...ne-nd-kit.html

    Here's the Additional Discount Code good until the end of the year: BMC10 -- gives you 10% off on all Hoya filters, including the ProND kits, and Kenko Variable ND filters. That goes for the set, as well.

    So if you use the 10% (which of course you should) each filter breaks down to around 86.00 each from 121.00 Retail (77mm), which is quite good considering the Tiffens are also about 85 each when not purchasing in a set, and they aren't as neutral (or solid, in my opinion.)

    You can also just use the 10% on single filters if you'd rather do that.

    Take a look, and definitely post up if you grab a set. I'm going to get a second set, I've got them all through the 1000X but going to go with 4 - 100X.

    Hope this helps some people out.

    ---

    If you don't know what they are, check this link: http://www.kenkotokinausa.com/news/press/N0000024/

    Why?

    Because, a lot of us want a clean base. That means finding NDs with minimal color cast, minimal effect on sharpness, and for a lot of us, affordable.

    Other Solutions

    I've personally used Tiffen WW IR NDs, and had used them before the 2.5K on other DSLRs, FS100, etc. Naturally, that's where I started. After much shooting with the 2.5K and this combo, the inconsistencies between filters began to bother me. It's partially IR pollution, definitely color casts. Next, I tried Schneider NDs briefly and they seemed to offer a more neutral image out of the box so to speak. Problem was still IR, and for personal ownership the cost of purchasing Schneiders.

    Many other options out there, including a variable + IR cut combo which Frank Glencairn and Adam Roberts use right now, and have reported good results.

    My fear of Vari's are color casts of course, but even more important sharpness or affected bokeh.

    They seem to have good results, though, and I would still like to compare first hand.

    Now

    I caught up with Kenko-Tokina and managed to source an entire set of their new ProNDs for testing. I became curious because of their description of the product, which seemed to be similar to another 4x5.6 ND sold at a much higher cost, and are pretty amazing when it comes to consistency at various stops, and reducing IR pollution at the same time.

    Hoya/Kenko-Tokina does not advertise these NDs as IR combos, but I was able to confirm that the metallic coating does cut IR as well. So, do not take this as an "IR ND" solution until it's confirmed that these are suited to the task.

    This thread

    Is for rolling reports as they become available, and as I get out to test them. I'll likely update the first two posts with examples from myself and anyone else that picks them up and wants to share.

    NOTE

    At the time of starting this thread, the entire set is not available for purchase and they are still waiting for shipments to arrive from Japan to go out to dealers. You can find the 77mm 1000x on ebay, hopefully the rest will be around very soon.

    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

  • #2
    Actual Valuable Info --

    Hook's second round of tests on Blackmagic 4K - http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post108645

    Hook's First Tiffen, Hoya ProND, Hoya ProND + IR Cut tests -- http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...ll=1#post97497

    Vic Harris's stacking sharpness test -- http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...ll=1#post97490


    --


    Around two weeks spent with the loaner set, most consistency I've ever had shooting with the 2.5K.

    Sigma ETTF, 2.5K, ProRes, Hoya ProNDs

    Originally posted by Kholi View Post





    ----

    First Stills from the Sigma 18-35 wide open, 2.5K camera and the Hoya ProND 200X which is the heavier 2.1 listed on the site.

    https://drive.google.com/folderview?...nM&usp=sharing

    This was the first thing I tried, because I considered the heavier 2.1 to be the real test, shooting wide open and rather underexposed.

    Judge for yourself, of course.

    I'm going to go out to just test them in familiar scenarios without comparing them to the Tiffens. That test will be conducted by Vic Harris and myself as he has the entire set of Tiffen WW IR NDs and two sets of hands are better than one.

    --

    Updated with an adjusted still. I did nothing more than shift this toward a warmer hue, LGG (for blacks and highs, no color adjustments), then denoise the chroma.



    Again, this is from the 2.1 (7 2/3 stops down), shot wide open on the Sigma. It's very very underexposed, intended, as we know that 2.1 is a dangerous amount of ND...

    I'm pretty astonished that I had to do very very little to get it to like that... ready to be let down by skintones because it's almost too solid to be true.

    ---

    Went out for a few hours to a similar place in Venice, since the first round of stills from the 2.5K were here.

    Here's the Pocket camera with the Hoyas and Sigma.

    https://drive.google.com/folderview?...m8&usp=sharing

    Had more, but they were with the 25/0.95 SLR wide open and all of the fringing renders them useless for checking IR, due to CA and the lens' color cast. Same with the 85/1.8 Canon, which has a lot of CA wide open on the Pocket.

    Still trying to get some time with skin, but there's a lot of black in the stills I uploaded, a control frame with the sigma closed down and then one with the Hoya 200x (2.1) same frame.

    FYI the shot of the girls walking toward camera, the chics shirt is actually purple, not black. The guys in the background have black shirts.

    I haven't asked asked anyone at BMD about this, but it seems that the Hoyas on the Pocket are filtering enough IR to render the additional IR cut unneeded, suggesting that the Pocket's different in this regard.

    Just balance the image for 5500 daylight, find the black point, and saturate.

    SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
    Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

    Comment


    • #3
      Thought it was the pocket at first when I saw the grain in the flower shot. As I showed the Tiffen 2.1 is unusable on BM cameras so we're already a leg up if you ask me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Those dngs look pretty nice colour wise, but it will be very interesting to see comparisons. I have the Heliopan Vari-ND and IR filter like Frank does but I want a set of single NDs as well so I will observe this thread closely.
        fluoro.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Will be following this too. Thanks Kholi/Vic!
          Blackmagic Design
          My BMD LUTs.

          **Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks! Hope you'll also be able try them on the Pocket, since it seems to be a bit different in in-camera IR character from the BMCC. Possibly due to the extra cover glass. Some side-by-side may settle that question.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm aboard as well. Look forward to these tests.

              Comment


              • #8
                Updated with an adjusted still. I did nothing more than shift this toward a warmer hue, LGG (for blacks and highs, no color adjustments), then denoise the chroma.



                Again, this is from the 2.1 (7 2/3 stops down), shot wide open on the Sigma. It's very very underexposed, intended, as we know that 2.1 is a dangerous amount of ND...

                I'm pretty astonished that I had to do very very little to get it to like that... ready to be let down by skintones because it's almost too solid to be true.

                SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just uploaded a lot more stills from the 2.5K today.

                  All Sigma + Hoya ProNDs of various strengths, between the weaker 2.1 and the .6 aside from the shot with the two girls on the bench, which is the Canon 85/1.8. Here's a reference frame, one node and literally just adjusted white balance for the time of day (this was a 4500 shot):



                  Most shot at 5600, some at 4500

                  I'm finding now that it actually doesn't matter where I put the WB, I've gone and done a 4500 and 5600 shot back to back, changed the WB settings in the DNG tab and they're indistinguishable with the hoya filters on.

                  SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                  Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Kholi, have you tested against this filter?
                    http://www.kenkotokinausa.com/hoya/p...lters/uvircut/

                    I have that one and need to find some time to test against my Tiffen IRND and my Pancros.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                      Kholi, have you tested against this filter?
                      http://www.kenkotokinausa.com/hoya/p...lters/uvircut/

                      I have that one and need to find some time to test against my Tiffen IRND and my Pancros.
                      I have not, but I may be able to source one for testing. It would be nice to see that with the Tiffen Vari ND because it seems to retain more sharpness than the alternatives.

                      Gut tells me that it would work fine, yet now I'm wondering if the bigger issue isn't color casts in general. I'm still getting IR contamination in certain kinds of black fabrics, not a lot and not to be mistaken for sun hitting black fabric and showing warm. The right white balance etc. that's gonna happen... but, the initial color cast may be hindering us more than the IR.

                      It's a hunch, whenever Vic and I can put the tiffens together with the Hoyas we'll find out.

                      Will also go hunting for the Hoya IR cut.

                      SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                      Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for your testings, gentlemen, very appeciated!
                        ___________________________
                        www.gernemehrfilm.de
                        www.berlin3k5.de/

                        Will trade my as-new BMPCC 4K v.1.0 for two new BMPCC 4K V.2.0

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kholi View Post
                          I have not, but I may be able to source one for testing. It would be nice to see that with the Tiffen Vari ND because it seems to retain more sharpness than the alternatives.

                          Gut tells me that it would work fine, yet now I'm wondering if the bigger issue isn't color casts in general. I'm still getting IR contamination in certain kinds of black fabrics, not a lot and not to be mistaken for sun hitting black fabric and showing warm. The right white balance etc. that's gonna happen... but, the initial color cast may be hindering us more than the IR.

                          It's a hunch, whenever Vic and I can put the tiffens together with the Hoyas we'll find out.

                          Will also go hunting for the Hoya IR cut.
                          I have the Tiffen VariND filter. I'll take my camera out today and shoot with the following combo:
                          Pocket Cam set to 4500K, 5000K, and 5600K, ISO 400 and 800
                          Sigma 18-35
                          Tiffen VariND
                          Hoya IR/UV Cut

                          Now, the only way I can do this due to no filter thread on the front of Tiffen VariND is to put Hoya behind the Tiffen or tape it to the front. Maybe I'll try that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                            I have the Tiffen VariND filter. I'll take my camera out today and shoot with the following combo:
                            Pocket Cam set to 4500K, 5000K, and 5600K, ISO 400 and 800
                            Sigma 18-35
                            Tiffen VariND
                            Hoya IR/UV Cut

                            Now, the only way I can do this due to no filter thread on the front of Tiffen VariND is to put Hoya behind the Tiffen or tape it to the front. Maybe I'll try that.
                            I believe you can put the cut behind the filter and it won't make any difference, so you're okay. Hot Mirrors go in front of the other filters, but cuts can go anywhere.

                            Definitely interested in seeing this combo, please do post when you have some footage. I'm headed out as well with the Pocket Camera to grab some DNGs with the Hoyas and Sigma.

                            SKYPE (best way to talk to me): Camera_Kholi | twitter
                            Avery and Pete: Superseeds Feature Film Trailer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Has Hoya changed their coatings to make their filters as easily cleanable as other brands?

                              I hate to sound anal about this, but it has caused me a lot of frustration in the field in the past. The newest Hoya I own is a Super Pro 1 CPL and it is a PITA to clean compared with B+W.

                              I'm not sure that "Cut" is a well-defined technical term. So if "cut" = absorption, then yeah, it wouldn't matter where the IR cut is placed. But if the Hoya IR Cut is actually a dichroic or other "hot mirror" type (or maybe a combo since the description mentions the "sharp cut nature of the GLASS AND COATINGS") then it could make a difference. Though when I asked Schneider how to use their Tru-cut dichroic IR filter (Schneider Platinum are absorption type) with their vary-ND (which does not have front threads) the engineer said screw it to the back. Anyway, a trial both ways could be interesting.

                              A bit OT, but I was trying out a B+W vary-ND and I was surprised at the amount of color shift when the entire filter is rotated. That is, same amount of ND strength, but rotating the whole filter in the lens threads 90 degrees (which would alter the alignment of the front linear polarizer to the light source) produced very noticeable G-M shifts. I've never used a vary-ND of any brand before. Are they all like this?
                              Last edited by Steve Wake; 11-09-2013, 09:17 AM.

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