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S16 Camera choice. Some help please.

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  • #31
    I think as an all-rounder either of the new PnKs are a better option. For s16 specifically it’s really going to come down to what you are doing and how you shoot. Is 2.6k braw better than HD 3:1 cdng? I dont recall too many people being blown away by the window modes on the Ursas so I wouldn’t say it’s a given. The original bmcc was 2.4k and that didnt offer a distinct improvement over the pocket.

    Additionally you’ve got 2 global shutter options from dbolex and z cam in HD and 4k. For S16 that e2g may have potential but currently is the bastard of the bunch and may never see the firmware upgrades that the e2 has.

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    • #32
      Oh yeah! Can't believe we forgot to mention the Digital Bolex. That would be my pick if I were using 16mm lenses, of course if price were no issue. It's the most expensive of all of them. And very hard to find... there are two on ebay right now.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by GeranSimpson View Post
        Oh yeah! Can't believe we forgot to mention the Digital Bolex. That would be my pick if I were using 16mm lenses, of course if price were no issue. It's the most expensive of all of them. And very hard to find... there are two on ebay right now.
        Oh yeah..The Digital Bolex is my ABSOLUTE pick of the bunch as I just love what I have seen from it. But its quirky, its obsolete and IDK if it can be serviced anymore. Expensive it is. How many cameras can you buy that go UP in price over time? Its a strange one for sure.

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        • #34
          As many have said, the thread is about trying to make sense of all the options for a purchase ( boy aren't we lucky we have so many choices! - I think we sometimes forget what a golden age this is for cameras).

          Geran mentioned that this simply looks like a GAS attack. I went into a long explanation of why its not. That's just background so you understand a bit better in able to give your 2c given MY situation.

          I have a deep interest in S16 glass and have invested quite a bit in some nice S16 glass - high end S16 zooms. I have also invested in the Mamiya's that cover s35 and in fact up to and beyond 8K. I thought that all made sense as some sort of future proofing. How long before we are discussing 8K because there are 3 BM cams that do 8K now? 3 years? 5 years tops? My Mamiya glass covers that format with aplomb. The other lenses (m43 converted Cine Nikkors/C mount Schneiders etc/nikons converted to ef mount etc) are not such a big deal. If I can use them well and good, if not they are still wonderful collectors pieces. I invest heavily in glass - not bodies. In any case those smaller lenses can still be used on the OG PC.

          So with all that, which body? The UMP G2 is the top dog no doubt at all. The only thing against it is the size. I would like a little more stealth then that. Granted, a P4/6K dressed up is not a whole lot smaller, but there is the opportunity to strip them down to bare bones for those times stealth is a requirement or I dont get the shots. Can't do that with an UMP G2. Sure, there is a small step back in quality going DOWN to a P4/6K from the UMP G2 but how much ....? I dont know because I have never owned one of these cams. However it seems I wouldnt be giving up THAT much. But I throw that out to the floor for opinions on that aspect - you guys have these cameras, so you are the best people to comment.

          I was prepared to go UMB for S16 glass and UMP G2 for the S35 glass. What I am wondering is if the P4K is outright better then the UMB for the S16 glass ......and if the P6K is good enough for the S35 glass ? As I realised, if the P4K is actually better overall in image quality then the UMB (OK so sound is not as good on the P4K - but that can be compensated for easily enough and in fact external recording would be even better then what is on the UMB itself - so no real loss) and *IF* the P6K is good enough (ie, not giving up TOO much quality)for the S35 glass, then it's quite economical compared to my first plan of buying an UMB and an UMP G2.

          Then there is the OG PC. I intend to get a few of these regardless of all the above. The micro....I dont know. Probably not I think.

          So there it is. P4K instead of UMB ? P6K instead of UMP G2 ? I think that's what it really is at this moment in time. But I dont have the experience in all this that you guys do, hence the thread.

          The other thing is, this windowing of crops. I have never used it or seen it used. I really didn't know much about it till this thread where it was explained to me. Does the UMP G2 do an S16 window crop ?
          Last edited by M&M's; 09-19-2019, 11:56 PM.

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          • #35
            Hi M&M's

            Regarding the super16, for the me question is solved. It's either the BMMCC or the BMPCC 4K with its super16 mode. The Ursa Mini Broadcast just doesn't have a good censor. The comparison between UMB and Micro is not possible. The Micro - like the Pocket v1 - offers a truly cinematographic image. UMB makes a very old 'video' image. I don't know any short film made with this camera.
            Currently, the only choices are
            - Pocket / Micro
            - BMPCC 4K = super16 mode
            - Digital Bolex.

            Maybe UMP G2 in a super16 crop mode? Idk if it's really easy to use.

            I dream of a Micro Ursa mini Pro G2 with a m43 sensor & super 16 functions.

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            • #36
              Hi bmpcc_bel,

              I agree that it does seem that way.

              it really looks to me like P4K for the new 2.6K Super 16 crop. Or..the OG PC .....Or the BMMCC.

              I think it looks like the UMB is now outclassed and is no longer a viable runner in the contest. Good for its niche but for S16 things have moved on.

              so P6K for S35 or UMP G2? No doubt the UMP G2 has the chops over the P6K. But how big a difference is it *REALLY* and then there are other factors like size and NO stealth ever on the UMP G2 if that is important to someone at times.

              There is also a lot to be said for going with the P6K for S35 for now ($2.5K only) and wait it out for the next gen UMP 8K ?? Surely the UMP G2 6K has to be around the corner any time now (next NAB??). A side benefit to this approach is that the P6K can also do a S16 mode at 2.8K. the extra tiny bit of Res not that useful for anything but it does serve as a backup body to the P4K if that one should go down.......

              I think I have come to my own conclusion on all this as well. But it was nice to hear from the big guys on this.

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              • #37
                But hey.....lets not forget the ONLY way you are getting 4K S16 footage (if that is really important to you) is via the UMB.

                But honestly, horses for courses. The way the world has gone, my "episodes" that I plan to do will be for online delivery (Blu Ray discs dead as a dodo these days ?). At least for the next few years thats looking like HD delivery. I just cant plan for how I think things will be 5/8/10 years down the road. So HD delivery it is for now.

                One other interesting thing though...when we to get to BMD 8K (and we surely will) will the S16 crop on the 8K camera then be 4K res?

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                • #38
                  There is no single perfect camera. It is all mostly depends of ergonomics and your shooting conditions.

                  UMP G2 S16 mode advantage is VERY fast rolling shutter (3.2 ms for 2K resolution) and high frame rate slow mo. BRAW workflow. But use it only for S16 is sort of waste of time and energy because in the end 1:1 pixel S16 image and noise level will look the same as native HD BMMCC/BMPCC. It also needs additional OLPF and IR filtration. Huge size and weight, huge battery, high cost.

                  P4K BRAW partially smoothes aliasing, but it is still there. In S16 crop mode you will notice it a lot. It needs IR filter. P6K seems slightly better in terms of dynamic range and it seems have no IR pollution. Did P6K have S16 crop mode? Both have very Low internal battery life.
                  The main problem is that Pocket4K and 6K form factor is not designed for modification or rigging. It is designed in Photo Camera form factor aka all-in-one solution to quick grab camera and quickly shoot something from hands or from tripod. It is ergonomically very limited and any further rigging of this camera makes it look like oversized monster without any respect to 100 years of cinema camera ergonomics evolution. Especially when you you start to add cage, external SSD, monitor, external battery and mess of cables sticking out around. It problematic fit to gimbals.

                  Now here goes BMPCC vs BMMCC:

                  BMPCC pros: it is super cheap, 100% silent, super small and invisible for quick handled stealth shooting with small lens. (This may work well for some quick few seconds shoots, but not sure if full movie could be done like this). it have user friendly camera control buttons and navigation joystick.
                  BMPCC cons: too slim and too weak body, too small grip to hold well, too dull monitor to see something, too small battery life, bottom sized SD card and battery slot, too weak connectors to connect external monitor and power in the field. Over time when it overheats rubber starts to glue off from body. There is a risk to get secondhand model with "White Orbs" early hardware sensor problem. No DNG 3:1 compression. Not supported by BM anymore.
                  So it will work for you but you will always fill a lot of limitations.

                  The beauty of BMMCC is that it could be rigged in any way you like. You can make it large or small. You can make it looks like DSLR or like shoulder mount broadcast camera. Mount to lightweight gimbal or drone or put on sticky tape to your bike helmet. Need stealth shooting - put it to small cardboard box and no one will notice it. Even fully rigged it stays small and lightweight. Easy to change battery and SD card. Wooden Camera PL mount hard connected to cage will provide 100% steady lens connection without any shake. The most expensive part is OLPF filter, but it is really worth final image quality and allow to shoot RAW. DNG 3:1 file size only slightly larger that Prores422.
                  If you use ND filters and shoot ProRes the only control button you need is WB. No need to adjust ISO because gain in linear gamma will adjust Expose(ISO) in post (see my earlier link to workflow). If you shoot RAW you need only touch Record button. Add Nucleus Nano and you will have universal wireless Follow focus and Start/Stop controller button all in one hand.
                  DNG on both BMPCC/BMMCC allow to use Color Science gen1 or gen4. Color Science Gen4 is better balanced and provide more saturated "happier" look (see my earlier link to workflow)


                  Last edited by shijan; 09-20-2019, 03:07 AM.
                  All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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                  • #39
                    Mine.

                    IMG_7136.jpg

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                    • #40
                      Pocket4K vs BMMCC sample taken from this discussion https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic...comment-291481

                      All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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                      • #41
                        I have a hunch the stills from that test were pulled from a 1080 timeline, in which case it doesn't do the Pocket4K justice. If the timeline is 1080, anything higher resolution is downscaled and a substantial amount of quality is lost, even if rendered at 4k. Both of those images have almost exactly the same detail, which is not a correct representation of the image the 4K produces.

                        On second look those aren't even stills, it's an image with the stills placed into it. Poor test.

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                        • #42
                          Interesting way:

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyTUSuBwcCk&

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bmpcc_bel View Post
                            and Shijan has been saying it all along......

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                            • #44



                              All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by M&M's View Post
                                and Shijan has been saying it all along......
                                About the super scale function of Resolve?

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