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  • #16
    Originally posted by RAWlover View Post
    In 5 years the under $10,000 pro video camera market will be in this order.

    Z Cam
    Kinefinity
    Black Magic
    Who?

    We know most of y'all aren't real pros though cuz yer using speed boosters.

    Every where ya turn somebody is sayin how much better the 4k with a speed booster is than the 6k.
    Zcam will def surpass kinefinity. The CEO is super responsive, the prices are a lot better, they listen to user input and change it fast. Kinefinity while cheaper then RED and ARRI is still a lote more expensive then BM or Zcam.

    I am def interested in the Zcam F6. Only bummer is ZRAW, I wish they implemented BRAW or prores raw. The h265 codec is useless, so waiting on prores atleast.

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    • #17
      It's expected that we will be seeing an 8K FF URSA Mini Pro G3 in the months ahead.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by EYu View Post
        It's expected that we will be seeing an 8K FF URSA Mini Pro G3 in the months ahead.
        Nobody needs or wants 8k. I rather have a 2k arri alexa in a small and affordable body.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by polaroid22 View Post
          Nobody needs or wants 8k. I rather have a 2k arri alexa in a small and affordable body.
          I agree with this sentiment, but that is where the high end is going, so if the low end can have it at a reasonable price, many will want it. I would hope that things stabilize at 8k full frame, can't possibly need more than that.

          As a point of reference though, I attended an ASC Masterclass in the spring and we shot the demo projects mostly on Alexa, I think the 3.2k open gate. We also had a Panavision (RED) 8k for comparison. Grading in 4k at EFILM there was no comparison, Alexa stomped the Red in terms of cinema aesthetics, and you could not see resolution difference on the 4k projector.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by dop16mm View Post
            Alexa stomped the Red in terms of cinema aesthetics, and you could not see resolution difference on the 4k projector.
            What was the biggest standout in your mind? Any "ah ha" moments for you while watching the comparison?

            Shawn

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ShawnMi View Post
              What was the biggest standout in your mind? Any "ah ha" moments for you while watching the comparison?

              Shawn
              Huge dynamic range diffence, both in shadows and highlights. Higher resolution is negligible, the Arri footage was uprezzing to the screen while the 8k would be down sampled, but didn't signal better in any tangible way. Maybe I'm just getting older but I personally can't resolve beyond full HD any more, extra sharpness associated with higher resolution just reads as digital to me, not organic like film.

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              • #22
                Back on topic, I really like the ZCam hardware, but they're probably at least a year away from decent software. It would be cool if Resolve would support their Raw format, on paper it seems similar to Braw, but if you have to use a clunky software package to convert to an editing codec. It seems kind of pointless. And they definitely need a North American service depot, if they want this market, selling them at B$H isn't enough, where does it go if it dies, that is an important concern.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by dop16mm View Post
                  Huge dynamic range diffence, both in shadows and highlights. Higher resolution is negligible, the Arri footage was uprezzing to the screen while the 8k would be down sampled, but didn't signal better in any tangible way. Maybe I'm just getting older but I personally can't resolve beyond full HD any more, extra sharpness associated with higher resolution just reads as digital to me, not organic like film.
                  That's interesting. I wouldn't have expected a big difference in latitude, but maybe I shouldn't be too surprised, Red's DR claims always struck me as being optimistic and Arri's very conservative (17+ stops vs 14).

                  I'm not sure anyone can see the difference between 4k and 8k at optimal viewing distance... or maybe an 8k projector was needed? :-)

                  Shawn

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by polaroid22 View Post
                    Nobody needs or wants 8k. I rather have a 2k arri alexa in a small and affordable body.
                    Not everybody shoot movies here. I deal with ads, music videos, fashion stuff, frequent requests for vertical videos done out of horizontal videos for social platforms, videos for HUGE building displays with absurd aspect ratios.
                    The 4.6K is a minimum resolution I can consider as appropriate.
                    I often work with masks, cleaning unwanted stuff from the footage, etc... , and for me it will be much faster and easier to work with 8k footage.
                    There shouldn't be any difference in attitude between photo and video camera resolutions. If 8K is good for photo (which nobody seems to have problem with) then 8K is good for video too.

                    The main issue people have with 8K is the storage it requires. As for me, I just got two PC's with 10x10TB HDD drives in each, and forgot about size issues for I guess ~10 years.
                    But for those who don't want to spend money on storage, there is an option to down-res to 4k/2k in camera, so why even bother anyway?

                    Resolution can not affect cinematic look, lens/camera/filters do.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dop16mm View Post
                      Huge dynamic range diffence, both in shadows and highlights. Higher resolution is negligible, the Arri footage was uprezzing to the screen while the 8k would be down sampled, but didn't signal better in any tangible way. Maybe I'm just getting older but I personally can't resolve beyond full HD any more, extra sharpness associated with higher resolution just reads as digital to me, not organic like film.
                      You're saying it stupid to shoot 8K RED.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ShawnMi View Post
                        What was the biggest standout in your mind? Any "ah ha" moments for you while watching the comparison?

                        Shawn
                        Just wanted to put in my 2 cents on this, since I've graded quite a bit of Alexa and Red footage, sometimes mixed together. The main difference for me is how smooth and efficient it is to grade Alexa's colors. Red's skin tones are always all over the place when other variables start to change, and I find myself tweaking on the board to get it just right (good luck with a mouse and keyboard). With Alexa, everything is already where it should be, and remains constant as you adjust primaries, even if the lighting in the scene changed a bit.

                        When you're coloring a feature with 1000+ cuts, every minute spent fine tweaking a scene adds up to a LOT of time.

                        -another reason I don't see z cam or kinifinity "disrupting" the market any time soon. The color science is worth more than the other features on the specs page, and nobody advertises color science.

                        Blackmagic's colors on the Ursa are getting really good, so there's that.

                        With that said..there are times I still prefer to grade Red footage, especially if the DP is not great. Most of the time Alexa footage is prores, and Red is almost always raw. That added flexibility can save a bad shot.

                        The choice of the tool depends on so many variables.
                        Last edited by GeranSimpson; 08-23-2019, 06:54 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GeranSimpson View Post
                          Just wanted to put in my 2 cents on this, since I've graded quite a bit of Alexa and Red footage, sometimes mixed together. The main difference for me is how smooth and efficient it is to grade Alexa's colors. Red's skin tones are always all over the place when other variables start to change, and I find myself tweaking on the board to get it just right (good luck with a mouse and keyboard). With Alexa, everything is already where it should be, and remains constant as you adjust primaries, even if the lighting in the scene changed a bit.

                          When you're coloring a feature with 1000+ cuts, every minute spent fine tweaking a scene adds up to a LOT of time.

                          -another reason I don't see z cam or kinifinity "disrupting" the market any time soon. The color science is worth more than the other features on the specs page, and nobody advertises color science.

                          Blackmagic's colors on the Ursa are getting really good, so there's that.

                          With that said..there are times I still prefer to grade Red footage, especially if the DP is not great. Most of the time Alexa footage is prores, and Red is almost always raw. That added flexibility can save a bad shot.

                          The choice of the tool depends on so many variables.
                          That's also very interesting. I don't deal with a lot of Red footage, so it's good to get these insights. Thank you.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ShawnMi View Post
                            That's interesting. I wouldn't have expected a big difference in latitude, but maybe I shouldn't be too surprised, Red's DR claims always struck me as being optimistic and Arri's very conservative (17+ stops vs 14).

                            I'm not sure anyone can see the difference between 4k and 8k at optimal viewing distance... or maybe an 8k projector was needed? :-)

                            Shawn
                            At normal viewing distances, the human eye really does not resolve (see) beyond 3K.

                            A very detailed analysis of this was done by a very experienced Hollywood post guy, and several of us have posted his long video about it here on the forum.

                            Higher resolutions are fantastic for re-framing and for image stabilization, but that's a separate function.
                            Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
                            Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
                            Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DPStewart View Post
                              At normal viewing distances, the human eye really does not resolve (see) beyond 3K.

                              A very detailed analysis of this was done by a very experienced Hollywood post guy, and several of us have posted his long video about it here on the forum.

                              Higher resolutions are fantastic for re-framing and for image stabilization, but that's a separate function.
                              Are you talking about Steve Yedlin's resolution demos?

                              http://www.yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt1.html
                              http://www.yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html

                              Shawn

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DPStewart View Post
                                At normal viewing distances, the human eye really does not resolve (see) beyond 3K.

                                A very detailed analysis of this was done by a very experienced Hollywood post guy, and several of us have posted his long video about it here on the forum.

                                Higher resolutions are fantastic for re-framing and for image stabilization, but that's a separate function.
                                +1

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