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We may be getting CDNG back

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  • #31
    I am very happy to not have to deal with cDNG anymore.
    Darren Hartman
    Asyn Film | Banana Stand Media

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    • #32
      The great advantage of CDNG is that you can record in dual mode, half the frames to one card, and half to the other. It's a perfect backup feature which was saved my ass once, when I haven't got any time for data recovery.
      Yes, CDNG is harder to manage, but there is something essential in dealing with exact frames of your footage.

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      • #33
        Braw rgb, +1

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
          Yea, while I liked CinemaDNG, particularly the ability to record alternate frames to different cards and stuff like that. However, Blackmagic has already developed BRAW so I think it's more likely that Blackmagic make Blackmagic Raw... RAW. Not that they would make a new format but maybe BRAW 2.0 will hold Bayer data in RGB or something instead of converting it to YCbCr.
          Good point, I didn't think about that opening up.
          Vimeo.com/dropbars

          https://www.instagram.com/cook_it_off/

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          • #35
            Originally posted by stip View Post
            I want that Fairchild sensor in a micro body. Hail BMD.
            Me too, I don't even really care what body. I just want that G2 class dynamic range and rolling shutter read out in an MFT body. I doubt I would use 150 fps 4k very often, but that max sensor rate seems to be part of the motion cadence.

            On the matter of cdng, I've never used it. I find ProRes good enough on the original Pocket. Braw however gives most of the speed advantages of ProRes, with the grading controls of Raw, and greatly reduced data options, what's not to like? Seems like most moire issues in the early days can be attributed to cdng, it's never been an issue with ProRes. Some people scream it's not as sharp, but soft is what you want for narrative anyway. I've never added sharpening.

            But yeah I'm sticking with original Pocket as long as I can, clinging to the hope of a Fairchild MFT camera in the works. One can dream, and it saves me from buying a camera I don't really need.

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            • #36
              Me too, a new Fairchild Sensor in a MFT body would be grand, and it needs a S16 2.8K window!
              Cheers

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              • #37
                Originally posted by core_50 View Post
                Yes, CDNG is harder to manage, but there is something essential in dealing with exact frames of your footage.
                It's just something that works for me in my workflow with one of my cameras.
                The Chinese are offering it.
                I'd like it as an option.
                Maybe Reds patent problems will solve the issue.

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                • #38
                  Count me among those wishing for a new Fairchild Sensor in a MFT body. I don't necessarily expect it, but I would really love it. Until then I will continue to enjoy my Original BMCC 2.5 in MFT mount.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by core_50 View Post
                    The great advantage of CDNG is that you can record in dual mode, half the frames to one card, and half to the other. It's a perfect backup feature which was saved my ass once, when I haven't got any time for data recovery.
                    Yes, CDNG is harder to manage, but there is something essential in dealing with exact frames of your footage.
                    I agree. I've been dealing with image sequences for decades, so there are some advantages that are hard to give up (the option of capturing uncompressed images, the ability to repair or make up new frames, etc), however, I don't find them particularly hard to manage. BRAW is nice and I'm hopeful for it's continued development, but I don't think cDNG is coming back to the BMD lineup anytime soon... if at all.

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                    • #40
                      Just wanted to mention since I keep seeing it, media speeds are not the problem really when it comes to CDNG or whatever. There are very capable and reliable NVME media out there costing $300/TB with speeds of 1500~3000 MB/sec. Our cameras just haven't adapted those controllers yet. Do expect to see them very soon on new cameras especially 8K ones.
                      There are plenty of other reasons though why BM would not likely bring back CDNG even if there were 0 copyright/patent problems. Those reasons are well explained in BRAW's introduction video. There you can find information about several technical benefits. The other important thing though is the nightmare for BM maintaining support for BRAW and cDNG at the same time when clearly they can't implement in CDNG the things that keep bringing up in BRAW - the technical details explained in the video. Another reason is simplely Pride. They took it away which was a bold and mature decision. Bringing it back is rather immature. The main problem again though, in my oppinion, is that BM just doesn't want to bother with a codec that they can't do what they need to.
                      That doesn't mean there won't be a BRAW RGB or whatever they decide to name it at some point. But CDNG is most certainly dead. It's the nagging, psychotic, disfunctional ex from the past. Some are still clinging on it but BM has moved on to a new relashionship.
                      Last edited by pidulgi; 08-20-2019, 01:14 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Cdng ..

                        Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                        Count me among those wishing for a new Fairchild Sensor in a MFT body. I don't necessarily expect it, but I would really love it. Until then I will continue to enjoy my Original BMCC 2.5 in MFT mount.
                        Yes , the original BMCC has a really nice Colour Space , a good Sharpness too .. and it's using CinemaDNG .. Why not to use Four BMCC Sensors , put them together to get a 5k sensor , and use a new Trial Gain system to widen the Dynamic Range ? Maybe I am a Prehistorical and Obsolete Guy ... but I think the latest is not always the best ( unfortunately ) . I hope BM is going to much improve BRAW , because , as of today , for me , DNG images are far better .. sharpness , richness of colours , global look of the image , ability to recover and adjust about anything in Post .. I have tried all Da Vinci configurations with BRAW , and I feel sorry to say I cannot get the quality of C.DNG. .. I have always used Uncompressed Raw , because it's the best possible image quality .. The files are heavy but with today's technology .. not a big deal ..

                        In today's world , everything goes ( too ) fast ... The only important thing in the End is the quality of your work , and the quality of your images ... If , for speed , ease , and profitability , the User wants to use BRAW , OK , but I think BM should let the Choice to the User to still use Uncompressed Raw ..

                        I like what BMD does , their Concepts , and their Spirit , and , because I respect them , I want to say what I think ...

                        Yes , I am a Prehistorical and Obsolete ... Guy ( You may laugh ... ) , but I am far from the " Buzz " , and I only believe what I see .. and what I see is that some of my Dng Images are like " Living Paintings " , really Beautiful .. I want Cdng on my Cameras ..

                        With my Best Regards from France / Mike ..

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Michel59 View Post
                          Yes , the original BMCC has a really nice Colour Space , a good Sharpness too .. and it's using CinemaDNG .. Why not to use Four BMCC Sensors , put them together to get a 5k sensor , and use a new Trial Gain system to widen the Dynamic Range ? Maybe I am a Prehistorical and Obsolete Guy ... but I think the latest is not always the best ( unfortunately ) . I hope BM is going to much improve BRAW , because , as of today , for me , DNG images are far better .. sharpness , richness of colours , global look of the image , ability to recover and adjust about anything in Post .. I have tried all Da Vinci configurations with BRAW , and I feel sorry to say I cannot get the quality of C.DNG. .. I have always used Uncompressed Raw , because it's the best possible image quality .. The files are heavy but with today's technology .. not a big deal ..
                          Bonjour Michel,

                          I agree with your opinion on the BMCC. Great Camera, even in 2019. Sure, the 2.5k has its downsides, both in terms of its design as well as the resolution.
                          Still, with the superscale it is a versatile tool that mixes well with real 4k Material.

                          I see the advantages of BWAR in my Pocket 4K but I find it easier to grade my BMCC-Footage compared to the BRAW from the pockets, mostly in terms of color. But I have a lot less experience with my Pocket 4k, Ive been working with my BMCC since 2015.
                          Nevertheless Im still satisfied with the image-quality and filesizes of BRAW when watching it on a FullHD or UHD-TV. Once the Images move, the differences in visible sharpness dont matter anymore. But it probably depends on the kind of look you want. For me it has to be more on the filmlike side, so overly sharp frames isnt really what Im looking for.

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                          • #43
                            Cdng where are we going ?

                            Originally posted by Light&Color View Post
                            Bonjour Michel,

                            I agree with your opinion on the BMCC. Great Camera, even in 2019. Sure, the 2.5k has its downsides, both in terms of its design as well as the resolution.
                            Still, with the superscale it is a versatile tool that mixes well with real 4k Material.

                            I see the advantages of BWAR in my Pocket 4K but I find it easier to grade my BMCC-Footage compared to the BRAW from the pockets, mostly in terms of color. But I have a lot less experience with my Pocket 4k, Ive been working with my BMCC since 2015.
                            Nevertheless Im still satisfied with the image-quality and filesizes of BRAW when watching it on a FullHD or UHD-TV. Once the Images move, the differences in visible sharpness dont matter anymore. But it probably depends on the kind of look you want. For me it has to be more on the filmlike side, so overly sharp frames isnt really what Im looking for.
                            YES , Merci pour votre Rponse . I find it difficult to " Make my Mind " about Braw .. Yes , when images are moving , where is the Resolution ? Also , if we say 4.6K using C.Dng , what is the Real Resolution using Braw ? Despite knowing the advantages coming with Braw in terms of Speed , Ease of Use , and Workflow , I am not sure we are going in the Right Direction .. I think we should always be satisfied only with big Improvements in Image Quality .. If we consider that " It's good enough " .. I fear it's the beginning of the End ..
                            Only my Opinion .. You'll find here a Picture extracted from a shot made several years ago with a BMCC , a Zeiss 50 , and a 1.33X Anamorphic Adapter ( Slr Magic Anamorphot ) , using Lossless RAW , along our Loire River , South of the Old Bridge .. the kind of image I am looking for .. The Image Size has been reduced to get a not too large file ..
                            GIEN02Unsat.jpg
                            I hope for Big Improvements in Image Quality ..

                            With my Best Regards / Meilleures Salutations / Mike ..

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                              If I was BMD I would'nt say that. I would say it damaged sales and forced the company to spend massive amount of money on research to develop BRaw but would have preferred using compress version of CDNG as that was easier and better but RED tried to sue BMD from using. Then take it to court and sue them.
                              That's pure bogus. It obviously hasn't hurt BMD's sales in any way, and Grant Petty mentioned working on a clip-based codec for raw recording years ago, long before there was any indication of any legal issue. It was also exploring cDNG compression options because the existing ones weren't very good, and probably tripped over a patent infringement warning (it didn't come to a suit) from a company like Fraunhofer.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Timothy Cook View Post
                                Good points about the size of CDNG. I figured Apple wasn't going after Red for the CDNG, but was more curious if BMD would start using it again, alongside their BRAW.

                                I wonder if BMD would be open to ProRes RAW being an option in the new cameras, alongside of BRAW of course?
                                Don't forget that BMD has a lot of in house knowledge of color science on top of a lot of connections with high end post houses that drive its requirements... Braw has all of the workflow benefits of Redcode along with being attached to a much less expensive ecosystem that offers excellent image quality (regardless of being dirt cheap) AND requires less hardware to work with.

                                Why give that up? It's a win win for everyone. You might argue that it's a loss for Red, but since BMD and Red don't compete for the same markets, what little overlap there is between then is pretty much just noise in terms of sales and market share. That might change when Red launches the Komodo, but that would entail Red going after BMD's market which is quite crowded and I honestly don't expect the Komodo to have any impact on BMD. The Panasonic, Sony, and Canon entries in that price range possibly... because those are almost 2x the price of the BMD equivalent.

                                Adopting ProResRaw in its cameras would be a step BACKWARD. A big one.

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