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We may be getting CDNG back

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  • #16
    Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
    I don't think we will see cDNG again.

    It's too old fashioned and unwieldy.

    Think about the new pocket 6K. There's no way they can record 6K cDNG...pretty sure it would max out the media ! Same if there was 6K ProRes. What media are you going to use to keep up with that ?

    We have to have some kind of "smarter" compression, be it bRAW or something else like ProRes RAW...

    I don't think this is about cDNG, I think it's about ProRes RAW.

    I think this is why we haven't seen ProRes RAW adopted by anyone. No one seems to have picked it up....Though DJI made a camera with ProRes RAW i think, and they seemed to have gotten away with not being sued ?

    I'm sure there's more to come with this story...but I think the cDNG boat has sailed. I think BMD would have most likely moved onto something else anyway. As resolution goes up it just becomes more and more unwieldy.

    JB
    If I was BMD I would'nt say that. I would say it damaged sales and forced the company to spend massive amount of money on research to develop BRaw but would have preferred using compress version of CDNG as that was easier and better but RED tried to sue BMD from using. Then take it to court and sue them.

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    • #17
      The entire ecosystem is a better place with worthy competitors. I know lots of you seem to hate Red. In my mind they were the ones that began the disruption with the Red One. They completely changed the way that people envisioned the tools for cinematography not to mention turning the cost upside down, at least at the time. They continue to come out with new products on a steady pace. Some are better than others but I think we can all agree they've added some great innovations to what we do.

      A large part of their user base is happy right where they are. The hardware fits into their workflows as well as business models. And let's not forget that all the companies have issue of some sort or another. None of them are perfect.

      I consider myself fortunate to be benefiting from the results of the marketplace. I came in when the BMCC was first announced, moving from a lifetime in stills. The color science and tools made it a natural fit that I've never regretted. Though even with BM it's not been perfect. But as each problem came up I found BM to be a terrific partner, keeping my gear working or just replacing it. They've valued my loyalty as I do theirs. I've also made some lasting friendships along the way. I know many Red users who have a similar relationship with Red.

      If I'm scared of anyone it's Apple. For a company that began with a user base that counted creatives as their base of loyal customers I see little reward. Looking what they've done with the Mac Pro over the years makes me scratch my head. How many of you are getting ready to mortgage your homes for your next edit bay?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by dop16mm View Post
        Why would you want BMD to acquire Red? Completely different ecosystems. I think it would be awesome if they merged or acquired ZCam and kinefinity those guys are doing great thing with the hardware it seems but their software is way behind. If you put BRaw and the Blackmagic camera OS in those cameras they would be well covered.
        Kinefinity are RED ripoff, no?
        I think RED is much more feather on the cap to takeover than merging with the other two small time wannabes.

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        • #19
          cDNG is a deadend.

          Infringement or not they would have to do something different. The data rates are too high past 4K and the codec is too inefficient.

          JB

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
            I would say it damaged sales ...
            That's just your speculation, or do you have anything to back b this claim?

            Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
            .. but would have preferred using compress version of CDNG as that was easier and better
            In which Universe was DNG "easier"?

            While everybody is moving towards 6K and more, on what medium would you like to record 6K+ DNG material?
            Most folks having a hard time to find SD cards working with 4K DNG, and while CFast is handling 4K DNG just fine, I doubt they would be reliable at 6K or more, let alone higher frame rates,
            Blog: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

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            • #21
              Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
              I don't think we will see cDNG again.

              It's too old fashioned and unwieldy.

              Think about the new pocket 6K. There's no way they can record 6K cDNG...pretty sure it would max out the media ! Same if there was 6K ProRes. What media are you going to use to keep up with that ?

              We have to have some kind of "smarter" compression, be it bRAW or something else like ProRes RAW...

              I don't think this is about cDNG, I think it's about ProRes RAW.

              I think this is why we haven't seen ProRes RAW adopted by anyone. No one seems to have picked it up....Though DJI made a camera with ProRes RAW i think, and they seemed to have gotten away with not being sued ?

              I'm sure there's more to come with this story...but I think the cDNG boat has sailed. I think BMD would have most likely moved onto something else anyway. As resolution goes up it just becomes more and more unwieldy.

              JB
              Good points about the size of CDNG. I figured Apple wasn't going after Red for the CDNG, but was more curious if BMD would start using it again, alongside their BRAW.

              I wonder if BMD would be open to ProRes RAW being an option in the new cameras, alongside of BRAW of course?
              Vimeo.com/dropbars

              https://www.instagram.com/cook_it_off/

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Frank Glencairn View Post
                That's just your speculation, or do you have anything to back b this claim?



                In which Universe was DNG "easier"?

                While everybody is moving towards 6K and more, on what medium would you like to record 6K+ DNG material?
                Most folks having a hard time to find SD cards working with 4K DNG, and while CFast is handling 4K DNG just fine, I doubt they would be reliable at 6K or more, let alone higher frame rates,
                You and JB completely missed my point. In your haste of trying to be defensive you forget the sentiment behind what I'm saying with regard to a potential court case.
                Not many lawyers would want you two as their clients

                In Apple vs RED case I can now see the latter saying in court that companies like BMD are well capable of and very happy producing their own compressed RAW without the need of infringing RED patent and fully respecting RED's IP. And then suggest Apple should go home and do the same.
                Last edited by Taikonaut; 08-16-2019, 03:28 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post

                  In Apple vs RED case I can now see the latter saying in court that companies like BMD are well capable of and very happy producing their own compressed RAW without the need of infringing RED patent and fully respecting RED's IP. And then suggest Apple should go home and do the same.
                  Who needs $1000hr lawyers when you have Taikonaut on the case.
                  http://www.gamma-movie.com The IndieGathering 2016 best Sci-Fi feature screenplay.

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                  • #24
                    Yea, while I liked CinemaDNG, particularly the ability to record alternate frames to different cards and stuff like that. However, Blackmagic has already developed BRAW so I think it's more likely that Blackmagic make Blackmagic Raw... RAW. Not that they would make a new format but maybe BRAW 2.0 will hold Bayer data in RGB or something instead of converting it to YCbCr.

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                    • #25
                      You all have missed the main point here.

                      First CDNG is dead, for high res video recording, nor does Apple does not use compressed CDNG

                      Next, Apple is Not suing Red in a US Civil or Criminal Court! Apple has filed a petition with the US Patent Office to dismiss Red’s Patent claim to compressed video recording formates. This has nothing right now to do with the US Civil Courts. You need to re-read all of the comments on the BMD site. Requesting a “Hearing” with the US Patent Office is a quick way to pull the rug out from under a Red, by challenging the legality of the Red Patent, and having it revoked. No RedPatent over Compressed Raw Video files, eliminates all of Red’s legal claims. No one is asking for or getting any “damages” claim money. This is just a legal move by Apple to eliminate the Red claim to a Patent on something that can Apple is claiming can not have a US Patent, as their is no basis for protecting any unique original product or concept.
                      Cheers
                      Last edited by Denny Smith; 08-16-2019, 09:53 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
                        but maybe BRAW 2.0 will hold Bayer data in RGB or something instead of converting it to YCbCr.
                        Yes, this would be my hope, too. Holding the data at the RGB level would be beneficial to green and blue screen work. As we have seen, converting to YCbCr and then back to RGB create artifacts that adversely affect keys. And there is no way to undo those artifacts. Admittedly, these color space conversions are not a significant issue for normal shooting, but for keying, they are. So Blackmagic, please introduce an RGB version of BRAW!

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                        • #27
                          The thread title is “we may be getting cDNG back”

                          That’s just not going to happen I don’t think. And it’s spurned innovation instead I guess you could argue. Now Blackmagic are making their own codec.

                          Let’s hope they do keep developing just like they have with cameras.

                          JB

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                          • #28
                            To 100% replace DNG RAW, BM may just add RGB BRAW mode in future. Also i wish they add in-camera noise reduction settings switch. Current too aggressive BRAW chroma noise blur produces too visible halos around solid color objects.
                            All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shijan View Post
                              To 100% replace DNG RAW, BM may just add RGB BRAW mode in future. Also i wish they add in-camera noise reduction settings switch. Current too aggressive BRAW chroma noise blur produces too visible halos around solid color objects.
                              I think we can guess why they have gone this way given the stuff coming out about the RED patents now. I’m not sure how long this process takes though, I’m assuming it could be tied up for years.

                              I think they have an “infrastructure” for their codec though. Let’s hope it can keep evolving. And we should be asking for what we want. They do pay attention.

                              JB

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
                                And we should be asking for what we want. They do pay attention.

                                JB
                                I want that Fairchild sensor in a micro body. Hail BMD.

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