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A Red Scarlet-w owners view on the BMPCC 6k

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  • A Red Scarlet-w owners view on the BMPCC 6k

    I'm a Red owner x3. Shifting from Premiere to Resolve... and progressively getting more amazed at what BMD is doing with both software and their cameras.

    I'm new to this community and interested in your thoughts on the 6k and 4k versions of this camera. Particularly, if you have experience with both Red and BMD cameras.


  • #2
    In early days people move from RED to Micro and Pocket Cinema Cameras and seems also where happy http://mattscottvisuals.com/blog/201...verything-else
    If you worked with RED IPP2 workflow and LUTs in Resolve, you can keep using them with Pocket6K camera. RED IPP2 workflow helps to fix Red channel clipping. You can see these posts and discussion for details:
    http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261522
    http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261532
    http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261572
    http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261582

    Some time ago i generated some experimental LUTs made from original RED IPP2 ones. They compress only color and don't affect contrast or gamma curve. Archive also includes two custom generated 1D Log to Rec LUTs (RED Log3G10 to Amira 709 and RED Log3G10 to Alexa X2) Those are designed to compress gamma only. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1..._LUTs.zip?dl=0
    All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

    Comment


    • #3
      I was one of the first Red users in my country and I have worked with quite a few models, from the Red One to the Epic Dragon.
      Now I own a UP 4.6K G1 and love it. Already answered your question about Resolve too.

      Comment


      • #4
        I've used RED cameras on projects but do not own one. BMD has been the line of cameras that I've owned - from the original Pocket and 2.5K Cinema Camera, URSA 4K, and now the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 and Pocket 4K, with the Pocket 6K on order. I love Resolve and I think we can agree that there is no question it is a good software. These days, my clients have been agnostic to a point were price and value are both important to them. If we have to rent a RED package over using our Blackmagic camera solutions, it will cost them a lot more. And I have usually show them a comparison of a graded RED clip versus a Blackmagic Clip and to their eyes and taste they see on difference as far as their expectations. When considering their cost, 8 out of 10 of our clients would prefer to spend less. The Blackmagic cameras gives me a better profit margin because it cost a lot less both in the equipment cost and post processing, especially when comparing BRAW with R3D Raw 4K processing. So from my experience, BMD is giving a better value proposition to both our clients and to small production companies like ours. At the end of the day, brand names are getting less relevant and having the IQ and quality of your work is what impresses your clients. For me, they now could care less whether it is a Blackmagic, Arri, Canon, or Red that made the picture.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shijan View Post
          In early days people move from RED to Micro and Pocket Cinema Cameras and seems also where happy http://mattscottvisuals.com/blog/201...verything-else
          If you worked with RED IPP2 workflow and LUTs in Resolve, you can keep using them with Pocket6K camera. RED IPP2 workflow helps to fix Red channel clipping. You can see these posts and discussion for details:
          http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261522
          http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261532
          http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261572
          http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.ph...l=1#post261582

          Some time ago i generated some experimental LUTs made from original RED IPP2 ones. They compress only color and don't affect contrast or gamma curve. Archive also includes two custom generated 1D Log to Rec LUTs (RED Log3G10 to Amira 709 and RED Log3G10 to Alexa X2) Those are designed to compress gamma only. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1..._LUTs.zip?dl=0
          Thanks shijan, checking out those links now

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nomad View Post
            I was one of the first Red users in my country and I have worked with quite a few models, from the Red One to the Epic Dragon.
            Now I own a UP 4.6K G1 and love it. Already answered your question about Resolve too.
            Nomad, how do you find aliasing on the UP 4.6k? One of the things I do like with RED (even though the image is a bit softer) is I pretty much never encounter visible aliasing. Is it an issue?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EYu View Post
              I've used RED cameras on projects but do not own one. BMD has been the line of cameras that I've owned - from the original Pocket and 2.5K Cinema Camera, URSA 4K, and now the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K G2 and Pocket 4K, with the Pocket 6K on order. I love Resolve and I think we can agree that there is no question it is a good software. These days, my clients have been agnostic to a point were price and value are both important to them. If we have to rent a RED package over using our Blackmagic camera solutions, it will cost them a lot more. And I have usually show them a comparison of a graded RED clip versus a Blackmagic Clip and to their eyes and taste they see on difference as far as their expectations. When considering their cost, 8 out of 10 of our clients would prefer to spend less. The Blackmagic cameras gives me a better profit margin because it cost a lot less both in the equipment cost and post processing, especially when comparing BRAW with R3D Raw 4K processing. So from my experience, BMD is giving a better value proposition to both our clients and to small production companies like ours. At the end of the day, brand names are getting less relevant and having the IQ and quality of your work is what impresses your clients. For me, they now could care less whether it is a Blackmagic, Arri, Canon, or Red that made the picture.
              Hey EYu, I remember when the 2.5k came out. We had one on backorder for ages. Then a deal came up for a used Scarlet-mx and we pulled the trigger on it back in January 2013. That's still our B-cam today. My clients are similar (most of them) in that it's more about the end image quality, not the tool we use. Although some agencies etc are pleased/relax knowing we are shooting RED. (It's just a name brand they trust and is synonymous with quality for many.

              Looking to the future I could see us having better profit margins if we left the Red ecosystem. At the same time, we have no debt and the Scarlet-w is a great camera right now. But one of my thoughts is selling it for potentially a Ursa mini G-2 + a bmpcc6k... or a new flowtech tripod. Would certainly do a lot of extensive testing first. I think my first step would be to pick up a BMPCC6k down the track and get a workflow going to shoot with it as a gimbal and interview B-cam alongside the SW... Pretty sure I can rent a UM g2 locally.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes, aliasing can be a problem. I was also used to the 'softness' Red was blamed for, which actually just meant they were using a proper OLPF. On a Red, I could never provoke aliasing in a real-life shot, just some color moiré on test charts. Which is to be expected, if you would make the OLPF strong enough to suppress that on a Bayer sensors, you'd get very soft pictures. It's always a delicate balance, but Red did it right.

                Even Sony never did before the Venice, all their Cinealta cameras had some moiré, from F3 to F55.

                BM decided not to have an OLPF and we have been bitten when we used the old BMCC as a B-camera. It's not as bad with 4.6K, since you are getting closer to the resolution limit of many lenses, but I have added the Rawlite OLPF. Now it's as 'soft' as a Red, only better skintones ;-)

                I can send you comparison stills of a test chart if you PM me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Strong aliasing mostly visible with DNG RAW. OLPF filter is must have if you want to shoot DNG RAW. ProRes and BRAW codecs smooths image and partially filter aliasing. I share some tests with BMMCC and Mosaic OPLF here http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20918 Probably less matters for new cameras because they don't do DNG RAW.
                  Many people report that cleanest image from Ursa 4.6K is full sensor capture downsampled in-camera to HD and recorded as ProRes.
                  All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shijan View Post
                    Strong aliasing mostly visible with DNG RAW. OLPF filter is must have if you want to shoot DNG RAW. ProRes and BRAW codecs smooths image and partially filter aliasing. I share some tests with BMMCC and Mosaic OPLF here http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20918 Probably less matters for new cameras because they don't do DNG RAW.
                    Many people report that cleanest image from Ursa 4.6K is full sensor capture downsampled in-camera to HD and recorded as ProRes.
                    +1 and this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nomad View Post
                      Yes, aliasing can be a problem. I was also used to the 'softness' Red was blamed for, which actually just meant they were using a proper OLPF. On a Red, I could never provoke aliasing in a real-life shot, just some color moiré on test charts. Which is to be expected, if you would make the OLPF strong enough to suppress that on a Bayer sensors, you'd get very soft pictures. It's always a delicate balance, but Red did it right.
                      I don't know.... their OLPF's are very heavy handed in my view.

                      This really bites you in the arse once you go to a window'd frame rate. Back on the RED one you could shoot a test chart of windowed 1920 and a regular 720 camera would out resolve it easily.


                      JB

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        True. But on a test pattern you'd still get chroma moiré with a Red. At least they are interchangeable (and not as expensive as Sony's).

                        You can't do it right for everybody. Alan Roberts from the BBC once said that the Sony F3 had no OLPF at all. Which was sarcasm, but Sony always stayed on the sharper side until Venice. For me, the Rawlite hits a nice middle ground and a think Dean should like an UMP with it.
                        Last edited by Nomad; 08-16-2019, 06:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the input fellas. On the Red Scarlet-w shooting 5k and delivering 2k I don't punch in further than 3k. Cos yeah, it's not the best. If delivering 4k I think 4k is fine though. I like the look of RED at full resolution though. Have to admit I am contemplating a move to the URSA mini g2... internal ND's and audio are calling me lol. Also 120fps at 4.6k is better than the Scarlet-w's 4k 120fps (and less of a crop!). Broll handheld is soo much nicer at 100 - 120 over 50-60 so I'm always cropping to 4k on the Red. All that said, I adore the image - the colors, the DR on the dragon. I just still think it's gorgeous. But from my impressions, the Ursa is perhaps closer to Arri color (not good or bad, i like both) but with less room in the highlights then either RED or Arri. But not by much? What are your thoughts? I'm an Aussie so I'm happy to get on the BMD train and be a patriot ;-) Also... I just pulled the trigger on the 6k! Couldn't help it.

                          Do you guys think an 8k (or 6k) full frame option will come from BMD within the next 2 years?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dean Butler View Post

                            Do you guys think an 8k (or 6k) full frame option will come from BMD within the next 2 years?
                            yes
                            Blackmagic Design User Group UK

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think you’ll like it. Arri is famous for its skin tones, and BM is damn close.
                              While I liked our Reds for nature, I never found their skin tones that great.

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