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The difference in sensor size between P4k and P6k is not as big as you'd think

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  • The difference in sensor size between P4k and P6k is not as big as you'd think

    From the actual spec sheets the P4k, when shooting dci 4k has an oversized MFT sensor at 18.9mm wide. The maximum sensor width of the P6k is 23.1mm, a bit undersized for super35. The crop factor between the 2 is only 1.22 so fairly insignificant for framing and DOF difference. I don't have cameras to test but matching frames should come from 24mm on a P4k and 28mm on the P6k or say 42mm on the P4k is 50mm on P6k. They are even closer if using the 5.7k crop for 60p or the DCI 4k ProRes mode, which is only 21.5mm wide or a mathematically insignificant crop difference of 1.14

    I don't doubt they will sell a bunch just because of the native ef mount, and I'm sure some will even welcome the burden of the 6k workflow, but if you just want 4k Braw and don't mind adapted lenses, or use native MFT or PL lenses you are not losing much stick with the P4k. If you are a speedbooster user you would actually be losing quite a lot of effective sensor size to move to the P6k.

  • #2
    The P6K is less of an upgrade path (UM4.6K -> UMP G1 -> G2) and more for a separate user-base.
    Darren Hartman
    Asyn Film | Banana Stand Media

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Asyndeton View Post
      The P6K is less of an upgrade path (UM4.6K -> UMP G1 -> G2) and more for a separate user-base.
      Yes true, but I'm upgrading from original pocket, and haven't ordered the P4k yet, so fully evaluating options. I think P4k is best fit for me.

      I really think they should have called the new one the Bmcc6k even though it shares mostly same body, as Grant is right in stating that this is the spiritual successor to the original cinema cam for ef users.

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      • #4
        And today we have a new member here, please tell us about yourself...
        -Hi, my name is Toby.
        -[audience] Hi, Toby...
        -I've just made it through a week of not buying p6k.
        -[audience applause]
        -Well Toby, welcome to the "Proud P4K Owners Club"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by core_50 View Post
          And today we have a new member here, please tell us about yourself...
          -Hi, my name is Toby.
          -[audience] Hi, Toby...
          -I've just made it through a week of not buying p6k.
          -[audience applause]
          -Well Toby, welcome to the "Proud P4K Owners Club"
          That's pretty funny.

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          • #6
            Yes, it was... But I made it through last week without buying either the Pokcet 4K or the 6K...

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            • #7
              And I'm over here trying to buy / trade for an original Pocket camera!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by PeopleCanFly View Post
                And I'm over here trying to buy / trade for an original Pocket camera!
                Don't you have a micro?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PeopleCanFly View Post
                  And I'm over here trying to buy / trade for an original Pocket camera!
                  I'm waiting for the eBay price to drop to about $200, then I will grab a bunch, ha ha. Even if I get a new one I have no plans to give up the old one as long as it still works.

                  But there are times when I could use low light, high frame rates and a Resolve studio license.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dop16mm View Post
                    From the actual spec sheets the P4k, when shooting dci 4k has an oversized MFT sensor at 18.9mm wide. The maximum sensor width of the P6k is 23.1mm, a bit undersized for super35. The crop factor between the 2 is only 1.22 so fairly insignificant for framing and DOF difference. I don't have cameras to test but matching frames should come from 24mm on a P4k and 28mm on the P6k or say 42mm on the P4k is 50mm on P6k. They are even closer if using the 5.7k crop for 60p or the DCI 4k ProRes mode, which is only 21.5mm wide or a mathematically insignificant crop difference of 1.14

                    I don't doubt they will sell a bunch just because of the native ef mount, and I'm sure some will even welcome the burden of the 6k workflow, but if you just want 4k Braw and don't mind adapted lenses, or use native MFT or PL lenses you are not losing much stick with the P4k. If you are a speedbooster user you would actually be losing quite a lot of effective sensor size to move to the P6k.

                    Interesting thoughts, especially the bit about the 5.7k. But for me it works the other way around: most of the stuff I shoot goes to a 16:9 timeline, so in the p4k I'm using 3840x2160, which is a 2.03x crop factor, and in the p6k I could use 6144x3456, which is the full 1.56x crop factor. The ratio between those two is 1.30x.

                    The issue I have with the p6k is that my lens set is badly suited for an APS-C EF camera. On the p4k I use a 12mm f/2.0, a 25mm f/0.95, and a 50mm f/1.4, which in FoV+DoF equivalent terms leaves me at 24mm f/4.0, 50mm f/1.9 and 100mm f/2.8 equivalents. Not bad. On the p6k I'd go for a 18-35mm f/1.8 and 50mm f/1.4, which would mean a FoV+DoF equivalent of 28-55mm f/2.8 and 77mm f/2.2. Not ideal, and that's the best glass I know about for that lens mount and crop factor. the lack of fast, high quality and relatively cheap APS-C glass for the EF mount would be hurting me. I wish I could use my E-mount Sigma 16mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.4 lenses on the p6k...
                    My YouTube channel

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                    • #11
                      Correct re 16/9, the math comes out closer to typical MFT vs APS-C at that point. My point is to point the thought process out there and get people the think about their intended usage without blindly jumping a new train.

                      I just do narrative, typically at the 2.4:1 ratio, so I would get the full width of the P6k sensor and still have access to 60p, so thanks BM for including that. If I was going to be shooting for other people I would for sure go that route as most people around are canon users, those are the most readily available lenses. But I'm hoping the next few years I'll be returning to directing my own stuff. My style is wider lenses and deeper focus, I only care about shallow focus on close-ups which can still be achieved even on the original Pocket. I'm still up in the air about even upgrading. The one thing about this 6k release is that it drives home that most people can't keep up with technology and have to decide what is good enough for themselves. The original pocket is more than good enough, I've seen my footage projected in proper theatres, compared to Red and Alexa footage it holds up fine, general audience can't see the difference, doesn't need to be 4k. If I get a new camera it will be the one that best enhances my needs, and needing to buy new lenses to go with it would be too much.

                      There are many original Pocket users who installed the .58 speedbooster and never took it off. 18-35 sigma most of the time. Those guys will be fine moving to the 6k not having to adapt. If you use MFT and adapted 16mm glass the 4k is the only path that makes sense.

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                      • #12
                        @Samual H You don't have to limit yourself to APSC glass. There are tons of full frame EF lenses that are affordable and produce excellent quality images or deep character. If you go vintage it's even cheaper.

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                        • #13
                          The Pocket 6k is a sidway model than an upgrade of the Pocket 4k. I think they priced it too high amongst BMD price structure. $1899 sound about right but $2499 people might think its an upgrade.

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                          • #14
                            Seems very similar to the PC4K when it came out. BMCC(m 4/3) = Pocket 4k and Production 4K (s35) = Pocket 6K. The price jump is about the same as well. Makes sense to me.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GeranSimpson View Post
                              @Samual H You don't have to limit yourself to APSC glass. There are tons of full frame EF lenses that are affordable and produce excellent quality images or deep character. If you go vintage it's even cheaper.
                              Good FF EF glass usually means Canon L or Sigma Art, and that is EXPENSIVE (and also big and heavy). And I love vintage but I already have a great set and at f/2.8 on most focal lengths it's a bit limiting in terms of DoF unless you actually use it on FF.

                              On the cheap side I could go with the Samyang 16mm f/2.8 APS-C for my wide, and keep my current 50mm f/1.4 for portraits, but a good 30mm or 35mm f/1.4 (to match my current 25mm f/0.95) would not be cheap. OK the Sigma 35mm is not too expensive either, but I really don't feel like investing on EF glass when that mount is on its way out already.

                              Plus, there's the storage issue when shooting 6k BRAW, which TERRIFIES me.
                              My YouTube channel

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