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  • #46
    Interesting. ISO values usually never match between cameras. In digital reality ISO usually it is kind of abstract value defined by camera/sensor manufacturer. For proper compare you need to preserve highlights in exact same clipping point, or better 5% under clipping. Light clipping point is the only clear defined value for digital sensors. My suggest - shoot simple lightbulb in the dark with some objects around. Keep same lens and same f-stop but adjust shutter speed to match. This prevent optical distortions, contrast and color shift.

    BTW, did you try to shoot P4K same scene with same expose look but at low and high iso range and compare? There is a lot of unknown things about this camera yet. From tech specs high native ISO produce less dynamic range, but because high iso cleaner shadow noise probably more dynamic range could be recovered in post from shadows. From tech specs chart low native iso produces most dynamic range, but from samples i payed the deep shadow noise looks worse and "digital" and may allow less dynamic range recovery from shadows.
    All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/

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    • #47
      [QUOTE=shijan;255825]Yep, P4K is native ISO400 and this makes BMPCC theoretically one stop more sensitive and one stop less noisy. Different lighting conditions but you see difference in noise structure by yourself. And if look closer you can see some midtones noise in others P4K shoots even in bright daylight. I never see this with BMPCC.
      Those who calm that BMPCC have "less" color just don't get that BMPCC color science have less factory defined look, but all saturation and colors are always there and nothing is clipped. BMPCC just needs some manual adjustment or ColorChecker match profile to make it shine. Check my tests here "One more benefit to shoot RAW (colors recovery test)" http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?21154
      Color Science4 seems developed more like ready DSLR/Broadcast look with more saturation and more contrast. In combination with Sony sensor based on different technology it produces those strange artifacts.
      BTW first RAW UM4.6K samples with early firmware also produced strange clipping over the sun edges, but BM fix it lated with new version of firmware and color science. BMCC also was with "black sun" problem. That's why progress in professional industry is slower than in consumer marker. New cameras are always laggy and no one like to be a beta tester for own money. And bug fixes sometime may take years. [QUOTE]




      The difference is sensitivity is probably due to more saturated Bayer filters. The BMPCC used a Fairchild sensor with not very saturated filters and conversion efficiency in the 70% red-blue to 80% green range. My Bolex by comparison has 43% red-blue to 47% green conversion efficiency compared with its monochrome version at 79%. There is a major difference in fine color discrimination, accuracy, and saturation gamut between the two especially in warm colors. BMPCC can't do this:



      Pocket 4K is looking like it can come much closer. Despite the lower native ISO I think it is cleaner too. Was never impressed with the first gen BM cameras. I'm liking this one a lot. The Ursa 4.6K and pocket 4k are light years ahead of BM's previous efforts.
      Last edited by razz16mm; 10-21-2018, 06:19 AM.

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      • #48
        Greens are clipping (when you wouldn't expect them to with just about every camera) too.

        http://www.gamma-movie.com The IndieGathering 2016 best Sci-Fi feature screenplay.

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        • #49
          [QUOTE=razz16mm;255879][QUOTE=shijan;255825]Yep, P4K is native ISO400 and this makes BMPCC theoretically one stop more sensitive and one stop less noisy. Different lighting conditions but you see difference in noise structure by yourself. And if look closer you can see some midtones noise in others P4K shoots even in bright daylight. I never see this with BMPCC.
          Those who calm that BMPCC have "less" color just don't get that BMPCC color science have less factory defined look, but all saturation and colors are always there and nothing is clipped. BMPCC just needs some manual adjustment or ColorChecker match profile to make it shine. Check my tests here "One more benefit to shoot RAW (colors recovery test)" http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?21154
          Color Science4 seems developed more like ready DSLR/Broadcast look with more saturation and more contrast. In combination with Sony sensor based on different technology it produces those strange artifacts.
          BTW first RAW UM4.6K samples with early firmware also produced strange clipping over the sun edges, but BM fix it lated with new version of firmware and color science. BMCC also was with "black sun" problem. That's why progress in professional industry is slower than in consumer marker. New cameras are always laggy and no one like to be a beta tester for own money. And bug fixes sometime may take years.




          The difference is sensitivity is probably due to more saturated Bayer filters. The BMPCC used a Fairchild sensor with not very saturated filters and conversion efficiency in the 70% red-blue to 80% green range. My Bolex by comparison has 43% red-blue to 47% green conversion efficiency compared with its monochrome version at 79%. There is a major difference in fine color discrimination, accuracy, and saturation gamut between the two especially in warm colors. BMPCC can't do this:



          Pocket 4K is looking like it can come much closer. Despite the lower native ISO I think it is cleaner too. Was never impressed with the first gen BM cameras. I'm liking this one a lot. The Ursa 4.6K and pocket 4k are light years ahead of BM's previous efforts.
          Oh man that the shot.
          You're right - a BMPCC can't deliver that. (And I tried...)

          I loved all your Bolex stuff you would put yp.

          I frikkin' ADORE what was able to come out of that camera.

          Skin tones that could SCARE you because you thought you were looking at a tiny live person trapped in your computer monitor.

          Still bummed they didn't carry on.
          Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
          Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
          Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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          • #50
            Originally posted by squig View Post
            Greens are clipping (when you wouldn't expect them to with just about every camera) too.

            Yup.
            The color clipping is a very real thing with this P4K so far... It has also put out some AMAZING images.

            I suppose two things will happen - BMD will make some adjustments to the firmware that will improve it. And we will learn exactly what this new beast of a camera wants, and doesn't want.
            Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
            Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
            Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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            • #51
              Haven't noticed it to that degree on the Pocket 4K. Beautiful imagery on that video but the clipping is strange though
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              • #52
                Interestingly, and perhaps luckily for BMD, research has shown there's not much of a market for taillight videos. The audience for random shots of sodium lights and street neon is a little better.

                :-P
                Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUTs for the Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
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                • #53
                  Originally posted by joe12south View Post
                  Interestingly, and perhaps luckily for BMD, research has shown there's not much of a market for taillight videos. The audience for random shots of sodium lights and street neon is a little better.

                  :-P
                  While I know your joking unfortunately the bad clipping is what's making the tail lights a feature of these videos while they should be another background element.

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                  • #54
                    [QUOTE=squig;256030]Greens are clipping (when you wouldn't expect them to with just about every camera) too.

                    But the reds are in a league of their own...

                    11.jpg

                    12.jpg

                    13.jpg

                    14.jpg

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                    • #55
                      WOAH!.....
                      That red clipping is a show stopper. And a deal breaker if this one camera's results prove typical.
                      That's like the crazy blue clipping on the unusable first Sony A7s.

                      This is enough for me to hold off on my order until this gets resolved.
                      Those clipped reds are far worse than any camera I've shot with... or rather 'that I've owned'. And they come flying off of more than just "red lights" in this video as well.
                      This is scary, and I hope it proves to be an anomaly.
                      Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
                      Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
                      Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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                      • #56
                        Is red clipping only on Colour version 4?

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                        • #57
                          You don't have color science version 1 with BMPCC4K.
                          Though not as problematic, you can see that color science V4 can generate slightly red clipping with pictures coming from old BMPCC whereas there is no sign of it in color science V1.
                          Last edited by slothorp; 10-24-2018, 07:43 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Not that I don't want this fixed, but I've been shooting for two weeks and haven't once seen an issue. I'm not doubting the problem would be there if I decided to shoot straight into neon or colored LEDs at midnight, but instead I'm shooting the normal stuff someone would be paid for. It just seems a little knee-jerk to not buy this camera because of an edge case...unless your business is shooting cities at night. If that truly is what you shoot, well, then I guess you are out of luck.

                            Whether by revised profiles or firmware, I'm sure this will get "resolved" (see what I did there.)
                            Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUTs for the Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
                            Pocketluts Store

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by slothorp View Post
                              You don't have color science version 1 with BMPCC4K.
                              Though not as problematic, you can see that color science V4 can generate slightly red clipping with pictures coming from old BMPCC whereas there is no sign of it in color science V1.
                              Still a valid question for troubleshooting. It's easy enough in Resolve to force different gamma and gamut. Would be interesting if the issue is inherent in the file, or how the file is being interpreted.
                              Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUTs for the Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
                              Pocketluts Store

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by joe12south View Post
                                Not that I don't want this fixed, but I've been shooting for two weeks and haven't once seen an issue. I'm not doubting the problem would be there if I decided to shoot straight into neon or colored LEDs at midnight, but instead I'm shooting the normal stuff someone would be paid for. It just seems a little knee-jerk to not buy this camera because of an edge case...unless your business is shooting cities at night. If that truly is what you shoot, well, then I guess you are out of luck.

                                Whether by revised profiles or firmware, I'm sure this will get "resolved" (see what I did there.)

                                You don't have to shoot at midnight straight into neon to raise the problem : just shoot a city street scene at night and you will see it. Which, I think, is a real problem, even if you can have a work around in post. Doesn't mean that I want to get rid off the camera, as I like very much what's coming from it, after two weeks of getting used to. But I really hope BM will acknowledge the issue and try to fix it.

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