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We who prefer 2K Super 16 over 4K+ Super 35 - The *unofficial* Super 16 RAW thread

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  • Originally posted by razz16mm View Post
    I think some of Sony's newer backlit technology sensors could possibly work, but you can't buy those.
    What are Sony's rules? Last month they announced one that is 3208 x 2200 pixels, 4.5 microns each. So it's 14.44 x 9.9 mm, a bit bigger than Super 16 (12.52 x 7.41).
    But if you take a 2880 x 1620 crop of it, it is 12.96 x 7.29. The diagonal (14.87) would be just a third of a millimeter over Super 16's (14.55).

    Other features: global shutter, 80 dB (13.3 stops), 172 fps, dual-gain analog-digital-converter (isn't that part of Alexa's processing?). So it seems like, at least on paper: Alexa's resolution, nearly the dynamic range, and something the Alexa doesn't have --- global shutter --- but in Super 16.

    https://www.electronicsweekly.com/ne...-sony-2017-08/

    http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/produc...0LQJ_Flyer.pdf

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    • My own thoughts are that whilst I had 2K Super16mm courtesy of the SI2K, less the de-bayer bit, one did eventually wish after the 35mm film-like format. So I did embrace the groundglass 35mm adaptors and got good technical results from them. However as a real-world appliance they were a bit of a nightmare to live with. You had to be on their case meticulously. Then came RED and the Canon DSLR cameras and overnight, the groundglass 35mm adaptors bit the dust.

      My current adventure with the SI2K is the Metabones Speedbooster for the BMPCC which means I can use my old Nikon lens set I had built up for the 35mm groundglass adaptor. Properly trimmed, it works like a dream.

      Then for the sake of building an archive of a sail training ship in a state of partial dismantlement for a script I am writing which depicts the ship in such a state, to future-proof the images as much as I could, I bought a used URSA 4K at a discounted price and made a dumb Nikon F-Mount for it. I have not touched the SI2K since.

      The big URSA can do near-to 2K with the B4-Mount adaptor and HDCAM lenses or with its original PL-Mount, Super16mm lenses and either windowed sensor or crop in post. It looks quite good and is easier technically because of the on-board sound and phantom power the SI2K does not have without an added mixer.

      I still like the SI2K for events with its long available single-take recording times to the solid state drives and the cineform codec but the big URSA does the same job as well and easier.

      The Super16mm digital cinema format is one which replicates, with careful workmanship, the Super16mm film aesthetic, without of course the grain artifacts, unless you deliberately gain up as you can with the SI2K to generate them or add the effect in post. It is one of those creative things which has its place as part of the choices a person wants to make. The limitation and the trend away from Super16mm film and its digital emulators is the future expectations of audiences. They can be a fickle and trend-following lot. A style can go out of fashion very quickly and date a film.

      Like the 35mm groundglass adaptors, I sadly feel that Super16mm film and digital cinema will fall into a well worn niche. Due to lesser production value-adding because of budget limitations, it may not often realise its full potential. Some films shot on 1/2" and 2/3" digital with 35mm adaptors, when given the same production value adding as 35mm film gave very little if nothing away in terms of how they worked with an audience. "Dear Wendy", "Monsters" and "Merantau" were realised on small camera formats with 35mm groundglass adaptors with appropriate value-adding.

      I understand that "The Last King of Scotland" was shot on Super16mm film. I certainly did not observe anything "off" with the vision as the story and its realisation engaged me. "The Walking Dead" has been shot with Super16mm film, I assume for a particular aesthetic as well as for budgetary reasons. It was a curiously compelling watch for me as I am not overly fond of episodic television.

      Compared with dragging a big URSA and the SI2K/P+S recorder around, the small BMPCC is a lightweight romp in the park even with the need to hang all manner of cables and cages on it at about 5% of the cost of the original fully built up SI2K when it came out. The BMPCC with the Super16mm Optars on the camera and suitable filters is a lot easier to live with but the reliabiity of the SI2K and its ability to repair damaged files in-camera when some fool disconnects power is hard to beat. - It is all horses for courses.

      That stream of consciousness became a bit pedantic didn't it.
      Last edited by Robert Hart; 09-08-2017, 02:56 AM.

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      • If one is not put off by the size and weight, the Ursa mini-pro is perfectly capable of shooting windowed 2k in several formats, including 2k DCI. Fit it with a B4 mount and a good ENG wide range fast zoom and it should make a fine run and gun doc camera.
        The modern 1" video format cameras have taken over this niche, but so far they all come with fixed zooms and compressed video codecs. Fine for most industrial and news applications, but lacking the creative depth for serious small format productions.
        Personally I think the size and form factor of the UMP is close to ideal. Cameras can be too small and too light for decent handheld shooting without external gear like gimbals. My D16 rigged with a 12-120 and EVF for hand held shooting weighs in at 8Lbs, or 6-1/2 lbs with small primes. Very comfortable for me for extended hand held shooting when handled properly. I have carried it around street festivals for several hours straight without excessive fatigue. Ergonomically it is much handier and more comfortable to use this way than a Canon EOS or DSLR form factor camera.
        I like the aesthetics of S16mm sized formats.

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        • Nothing approved the BMCC and BMPCC camera's according to cinema look until yet
          BM is start to hunting on sony . canon , panasonic market and loose there unique thoughts about making real cinema camera's beside thinking about resolution , resolution , resolution
          I hope that someone take initiative to create a separate forum for the filmakers S16 and that wonderful magic filmlook camera's we have.
          Because this forum is not exiting me anymore ............

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          • Reviving this thread . Want to add my "AMEN"

            https://vimeo.com/215359158

            https://vimeo.com/155304559

            I think I want a D16 more than any other camera right now.

            Is the D16 really that good or is that shooter just a genius ?
            Last edited by M&M's; 05-20-2019, 09:53 AM.

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            • Originally posted by M&M's View Post
              Reviving this thread . Want to add my "AMEN"

              https://vimeo.com/215359158

              https://vimeo.com/155304559

              I think I want a D16 more than any other camera right now.

              Is the D16 really that good or is that shooter just a genius ?
              Outside of the global shutter, not really. Even less so now with the superfast sensor refresh rates available on the new cams. If all you want to do is cheeky niche home video stuff, sure. Any other purpose is easily emulated with FilmConvert or other tools

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              • Another overlooked S16 camera, is the Ursa Boradcast. Exchange the light sucking B4 adapter (good for run and gun shooting with B4 ENG zooms) for a PL mount, then you have a nice e 4K/UHD capable cine camera. With the PL Mount you can add your favorite S16 lens, or use larger Cine Zooms, like the Red 18-50 Zoom, or an Angenieux HR S16 zoom.
                Cheers

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                • The D16 certainly had some magic mojo going for its IQ. It had great motion cadence, beautiful colors, and a wonderfully thick film-like image. Too bad it's unfortunate design choices killed it. It quickly became the "hipster camera" with it's retro toy-like appearance and pointless faux hand crank. It's a S16 camera, but it's design was based on Bolex's consumer S8 cameras. Then you had its useless screen that only pointed up, and its internal non-removable SSD that could only offload to a card after shooting (what were they thinking?)

                  The D16 was a great image in an impractical camera. A lot of love went into it, and it's heartbreaking to think about what could have been.

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                  • Originally posted by NoxNoctus View Post
                    Outside of the global shutter, not really. Even less so now with the superfast sensor refresh rates available on the new cams. If all you want to do is cheeky niche home video stuff, sure. Any other purpose is easily emulated with FilmConvert or other tools
                    Cleary I am not talking about the subject matter on the first clip. But the "feel" of that clip is extraordinary - something I've never felt looking at footage from a Sony cam of one sort or another. Take another look at the second clip. My GOD ! The way the colour is rendered, the feel to the short........no other camera I've seen footage from even comes close to having this much soul. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to me those clips scream out, come to bed with me !

                    @Denny are there any clips from the UMB floating around because I have not been able to turn up much. The UMB is still my first choice as to which cam to buy as I want to explore the "shoot in 4K, downsample to 1080p" thing to see what it can do. I would love to see some clips from this workflow. But wow, that D16 is surely something else.

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                    • How good is the "2K window" on the UMP G2 ? What are the exact sizes of the window and is it one window available or two ? Will it give the S16 look and feel ?

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                      • This thread must never DIE !

                        Long live S16

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                        • The secret of the D16 was in the bayer filter for the colors. At that time, the Kodak engineers who designed the sensor were not concerning so much about the ISO (nobody complained about low ISO in the film era) their main goal was to extract the best colors. And they are indeed the most cinematic colors that a camera has ever produced..

                          However, BM has updated the Bayer filter of the Ursa Mini lately (in the G2) and now I see a remarkable difference. Check the colors of the G2, they're very close to Alexa.
                          It seems that this improvement has passed over in silence, but for me it is a substantial progress!

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                          • The D16 surely has some secret sauce in the mix !

                            What matters the most is how the footage looks and how it makes the viewer feel. I am not so much worried about the technicalities of the cameras - what matters most is the impact the footage has and the D16 is just wow. I dont know how i missed this when the D16 was a thing. But miss it I did and I am glad I have seen it now. The colour just jumps off the screen at me. No other cameras footage looks quite like the D16 footage. And it's not saturated gaudy colour either - the scenery takes on this almost surreal look and feel - its extraordinary. Is it just me? But man the prices for the D16 used are pretty crazy!

                            TBH, the other footage that I looked at that made me take pause was in fact the UMP 4.6k - and that clip of the surfer is something else - but is it that dramatic sunset and thus saturated colours of this, that makes that surfer footage so dramatic? I will wait to see more G2 footage that surely must be on the way to get a better feel of how it looks to me, but yes BM are hitting it out of the park!

                            Its a grand time to be buying a camera for sure.

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                            • It's one of the reasons I've yet to order the new P4k, I really love the look of the original, it hasn't died yet, and I don't have any pressing need for 4k. For now I'm prioritizing lenses and lighting. I'm building a set of native MFT manual lenses rather than adapted, I'm confident with the success of the P4k the format will continue to be viable for some time yet. I don't have a collection of Super16 lenses, so don't cling to that specific format, I have a couple of nice standard 16 lenses that don't quite cover the current sensor that I can get away with using for artistic reasons with a slight zoom and crop. I think MFT is a good compromise for those that like the advantages of smaller formats while also being able to deliver ver close to a 35mm look. Really hoping something is coming that uses the new Fairchild sensor. 4k 120p capable indicates that it might have same tech as the G2. Future is bright anyway. Despite the train racing toward large format sensors, I don't think it is the best choice for all uses, movement benefits from deeper DOF, especially gimbal tracking so you have a chance at holding focus.

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                              • I think you hit the nail on the head - having everything smaller and lighter and just all round easier is the key. Actually you are very right - M43 is the new S16. Never thought of it like that but you are dead on center.

                                I'd still like to find some UMB shorts out there somewhere - it does indeed seem as though this is the overlooked S16 cam. There just isnt that much out there about the UMB. I wonder how good that sensor is in that bigger body with more electronics and better cooling ?

                                EDIT: not much out there showing the UMB with S16 lenses. Double rare to find any footage that uses the UMB with S16 glass and is downsampled to 1080p/ (niche in a niche much ?)
                                Last edited by M&M's; 05-21-2019, 08:36 AM.

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