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  • #46
    Originally posted by Tomas Stacewicz View Post
    I stick with my 64 GB / 95Mb/s SDXC cards. I wouldn't dare to go for any of the larger ones. Don't want any dropped frames and such, or damaged content.
    I have the Sandisk 256GB 95MB/s card and it has worked flawlessly. So I wouldn't be too concerned there and if you have a particular shoot that needs to move quickly, these capacities help, especially if you are shooting RAW.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
      I have the Sandisk 256GB 95MB/s card and it has worked flawlessly. So I wouldn't be too concerned there and if you have a particular shoot that needs to move quickly, these capacities help, especially if you are shooting RAW.
      Thank's for the tip. Good to know.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
        Spinning drives were never ideal, but at the time it was what they had available with decent capacity. I was very fortunate, and in fact I still have both 320GB drives and still use them in a pinch on personal projects.

        Steve I don't want to get into a pissing match over RED and over individual issues, but there's always a constant inference with RED and pro-RED users that it's the user's fault somehow when results aren't satisfactory. "You're doing it wrong" And for sure, you need to understand what you're doing to make them work. But on the flip side, at a certain point the whole ecosystem has problems when you can still have these issues (like my recent experience) even when you do all the right things. You really can't be critical or have a dislike of RED without hearing the same kinds of things, which is why I went through your post like that to indicate what for me are important issues. Nothing irks me more than those kinds of general comments, the IT equivalent of, "did you try zapping the P-RAM".

        I had an experienced DIT. I was at Panavision, probably one of the biggest RED rental houses in the world and now a partner with RED on a new camera. I couldn't get the test footage I shot in pre-production off the camera. Simple as that. I was trying to have it be an option for the series I'm now doing. It's even more disheartening when you hear that they want to charge you to recover the card. And yet there's many who constantly jump on BM service threads to talk about how RED would bend over backwards and how customer focussed they are. Well, not in my experience. Again. Maybe I have a black mark against my name. I hadn't shot RED for a couple of years and I was keen to see where they were. I was even hoping to test a DXL. Not so much any more though....

        I know that many would substitute Blackmagic in my above statement, but having used both extensively, I know that in my own experience there's a big difference between them on a number of vectors that matter to me, namely look and utility. Other aspects that matter less to me like price and brand perception and brand culture I also see a huge difference.

        JB

        EDIT - I was honestly trying to find out what went wrong. No one else cared to know, but I asked Panavision to send the card in for recovery once we tried locally and frankly, I don't know what the LOG files would tell me. I'm three weeks into my shoot and I don't have time to follow up dead ends, and I wouldn't even mention the incident other than it seems relevant here as a an contrary example to those being posted.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
          Steve I don't want to get into a pissing match over RED and over individual issues, but there's always a constant inference with RED and pro-RED users that it's the user's fault somehow when results aren't satisfactory. "You're doing it wrong" And for sure, you need to understand what you're doing to make them work. But on the flip side, at a certain point the whole ecosystem has problems when you can still have these issues (like my recent experience) even when you do all the right things. You really can't be critical or have a dislike of RED without hearing the same kinds of things, which is why I went through your post like that to indicate what for me are important issues. Nothing irks me more than those kinds of general comments, the IT equivalent of, "did you try zapping the P-RAM".
          No pissing match necessary. I'd rather be helpful in some way. If you weren't able to get satisfactory answers, I'd like to know more about why and see if I could look into it. As for being a pro-RED person, I have been a RED camera owner since 2007, but I stopped at the Red One MX. The reason mostly comes down to the variety of projects I work on, which all have differing camera needs and my desire to work with DPs and let them have a lot of input on what camera to use. I don't consider myself a DP.

          I had an experienced DIT. I was at Panavision, probably one of the biggest RED rental houses in the world and now a partner with RED on a new camera. I couldn't get the test footage I shot in pre-production off the camera. Simple as that. I was trying to have it be an option for the series I'm now doing. It's even more disheartening when you hear that they want to charge you to recover the card. And yet there's many who constantly jump on BM service threads to talk about how RED would bend over backwards and how customer focussed they are. Well, not in my experience. Again. Maybe I have a black mark against my name. I hadn't shot RED for a couple of years and I was keen to see where they were. I was even hoping to test a DXL. Not so much any more though....
          The reason I asked about the Log file was to see if RED had been able to retrieve that and get any information from it which might have given them insight into whether this was a camera/media malfunction or they felt it was something else that contributed to an issue. If a problem with the physical media, I'm wondering if it was considered a non-warranty repair and that is why you were charged. Either way, I can understand being frustrated with this. If you want, contact me via PM about what you went through, why it left a bad taste in your mouth, and suggestions for improving it and I'll see if I can pass along some suggestions to RED and Panavision/Light Iron.

          I know that many would substitute Blackmagic in my above statement, but having used both extensively, I know that in my own experience there's a big difference between them on a number of vectors that matter to me, namely look and utility. Other aspects that matter less to me like price and brand perception and brand culture I also see a huge difference.
          Probably could insert any camera company here. But, I'd rather take your overall point that failures like this should be kept to an absolute minimum and make sure whatever camera company we are dealing with, they are reminded that it's of critical importance that the 1s and 0s get written to the media correctly. I believe the big companies get this, as it is their reputation on the line, but it never hurts to give them feedback on what can be improved. I never thought I would see an Alexa overheat, but watched it happen during a studio shoot and thought I was hallucinating. :-)
          JB

          EDIT - I was honestly trying to find out what went wrong. No one else cared to know, but I asked Panavision to send the card in for recovery once we tried locally and frankly, I don't know what the LOG files would tell me. I'm three weeks into my shoot and I don't have time to follow up dead ends, and I wouldn't even mention the incident other than it seems relevant here as a an contrary example to those being posted.
          It's important to know. It allows you to have a base of information to take with you to the next job, the next conversation about what camera to use. If there are issues, you want to know exactly what went wrong, has it been addressed, and are there any risks of it happening again in the future. I don't blame you one bit for wanting to get to the bottom of it. The log file recorded to the card, might have pertinent information. Either way, if there is media on the card and it can't be retrieved, then something went wrong. As long as you know 100% that the media was recorded, then you have a right to know why it can't be retrieved.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
            Either way you run this risk and you add revenue with proprietary media. the NAND you find in RED Mags/Mini Mags. The RED Mag (1.8") is actually based on SATA and the Red Mini Mag is based on PCIE (both with a proprietary interface though). There's nothing really special about it other than it's a good revenue stream for them.
            I hear people say this a lot, that there's nothing special about them other than firmware that makes them proprietary. Which means either RED is lying or someone has evidence to support this claim. I don't have evidence either way. So, I have to take RED at its word that their media is tested thoroughly to meet the demands of their cameras and the firmware is optimized to make sure it can meet those specs.

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            • #51
              I think what you are paying for with a RedMag (or Arri media), is a custom system,with "Tested" media, that they (Red/Arri) is certifying will meet the recording demands of the camera. The weak link here is if they all use off the shelf memory cards, errors can occur. The new Video Devices PixE Speed Drive is aa off the shelf Samsung 250GB 850 Evo mSATA SSD inside the USB enclosure. I think what you are paying for is the testing Red does to make sure the Mag will be reliable (as reliable as any memory cards system can be), but nine of them are without issues. I do not know how Red makes their mags or what components they use, but it has to cost them big $ to make and test them. It is his custom work and the reliability you are paying for.

              BM took the opposite tack, using commercially supplied media, but still testing samples to insure they work in the BM cameras.
              Cheers
              Last edited by Denny Smith; 02-02-2017, 02:20 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
                Not even special firmware.. Heck Panasonic P2 Cards were nothing special either they are just off the shelf SD Cards in a RAID 0 inside.
                Can you substantiate those claims? Not saying you are wrong, just asking for something factual that confirms what you are saying because this is what Jarred said in response to the JinniMag.
                Guys... I can't tell you how much this pisses me off. Not from a business perspective, but as a patent holder and a creator.

                Like all of you, we spend a lot of time money and effort creating what we do.

                For our media, we developed our own IP and Firmware and spent millions of dollars testing, certifying and QC every media card that we ship. Its why we have significantly less card errors than other companies using generic media... even reputable generic media.

                Media is one of the most critical components of the entire system and the way we write to a card is very different than a normal SSD is programed for.

                For some random company to hack and duplicate our IP and our firmware ( which is the only way they could do this ) is exactly like someone stealing your films and calling them their own and selling them to others. It goes against everything I stand for.


                I don't know where this company is from. I assume the UK cover is just bullshit. Someone said China but I really hope this is not the case as China has made such significant improvements over the last decade turning around their attitude towards Copyright infringement , Trademark violations , and IP theft ( which it appears this company has broken all three in one swoop )

                I am shocked some of you are here are actually endorsing this.

                I will shut RED completely down... I am not kidding... If stealing each others shit suddenly is deemed acceptable.

                It's not a world I want to work or create or live in.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
                  Exactly. I would post pictures and exact details but RED frowns upon that and threatens legal action when I tried that before... They are very protective of their $$
                  Pictures of what? Pics of which drive is inside? Or do you have info on the firmware and testing they go through that disputes what Jarred is saying? I understand being nervous about backlash, but call a spade a spade if you can back it up. Again, I want to reiterate I'm not saying you are wrong because I can't with 100% certainty verify either way. But here are some more responses from Jarred.
                  Originally posted by Jarred Land
                  Arri won't let you use Cfast to record ARRIRAW on it's big boy cameras. For good reason. They also have their own proprietary recorder card ( XR cards ) that they have tested and are confident in to record at their best.

                  As much as using cheap media is romantic .. it's just not worth it.

                  As much as everyone thinks Cfast to work just great on everything if you actually read the other companies ( Arri etc. ) you would find an alarming amount of of issues with Cfast corruption.

                  https://www.arri.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206&p=486

                  Canon even put out a warning for its customers not to use someCfast cards.. these type of warnings are pretty frequent.

                  https://www.dpreview.com/news/330779...s-1d-x-mark-ii

                  That was kinda a shitty deal because C300 only authorized Sandisk Cfast cards on its C300 cameras, because if you didn't use that card, guess what:

                  http://www.danmccomb.com/c300mkii-cf...ious-solution/


                  And I'm not just picking on Cfast.. its any card that is not tested and programmed and put through an extensive QC process to make sure it works with your cameras.

                  And as much as you say " o if it is junk and doesn't work ill just ditch it" we all know that isn't the reality.

                  When you are shooting whatever your shooting and you get corruption and you need to tell the producer that hired your that you just lost his $10,000 , $100,000, $1,000,000 shot from corruption, Most of you will not say " sorry I used a shitty card, my fault" . Most of you will say " The RED camera corrupted the card " .

                  We are nowhere near perfect but 9 out of 10 times if a 3rd party product fails and brings the production down we get blamed for it. I'm not making that up... We get those stories every day. It's why I have such an allergic reaction to D-Taps. You would not believe how many people have plugged their D-Tap cables in backwards from their 3rd party batteries to their 3rd party monitors and blew up the monitors... and then proceed to call us and DEMAND that we pay for the replacement since the batteries were mounted on our cameras.

                  And the guy that just said that non-physical IP should just be free for everyone.... You are nuts. The entire filmmaking industry wouldn't exist.. RED wouldn't exist... this forum wouldn't exist... likely even the internet wouldn't exist if god forbid your dream land was a reality.
                  Originally posted by Jarred Land
                  You do realize that we go through a lot of expense to get heavily screened memory and alot of testing goes into making sure it is the best available... that we make custom firmware specific to the cards and we have a pretty extensive QC and our development on media is pretty insane and go through many, many, man years of testing with a lot of engineers to pass all our media? You know that costs money right?

                  I just am shocked how some of you that I would expect to know how this all works really just don't get it.
                  Originally posted by Jarred Land
                  Not really off topic as it actually does relate..., I'd love to say yes.. REDundead is a great piece of software that has saved many lives over the years...... but like everything...It cost us money and engineers to develop. Apparently there is no value to that... and people don't seem to understand that that development and support needs to get paid for.. so after this discussion.. the reality is it's probably going to hafta be a no.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
                    No one ever said they didn't go through testing.
                    Can you clarify what you are saying? I interpreted what you said as they are nothing special, and it's a good revenue stream for RED. I agree they are making money on the SSDs. How much profit when factoring in memory screening, testing, QC, etc. I have no idea. The only part that I'm really questioning you on is the firmware and optimization when writing to these cards to assure that corruption is kept to a minimum. Jarred has claimed they do this. Are you saying they don't, that the firmware is merely there to make it proprietary? I just want to understand your position. One of the reasons we're on this topic is JB's experience with corrupt RED media. So, my point is that in almost all cases I would rather have media that is optimized and tested extensively that has a very low failure rate compared to an off the shelf piece of media that may not meet the specs it advertises.

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                    • #55
                      Steve, I agree completely with you on this. I can buy a Vodeo Devices Speed Drive enclosure and an off the shelf mSata card to put in it for less than the ones supplied by Video Devices -- but theses cards would be untested -- not worth the risk to save a few bob ($/€/), I went with the Video Devices tested/certified media. Why take the risk!
                      Cheers

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                      • #56
                        Anyone still remember this bad boy? What is the success/failure rates?

                        1TB-and-cam.jpg

                        http://www.digistor.com/480GB-2-5in-...SD-DIG-PVD480S

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Frank G. found the DigiStor SSD one of the most reliable SSDs he had used.

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                          • #58
                            Recently I've acquired a couple of other cameras, and have been shooting RED MX, Alexa EV (Classic version), Digital Bolex and URSA 4.6k. As an owner of each one of those cameras, the thing that's really stood out to me lately, is just how good URSA Mini skin tones look under tungsten light. That used to be a nagging weak point for me with the BMCC, that under incandescent / hologen tungsten light, you could never really see the full range of color (or at least what you might be expecting or thinking there should be..) like you could under sunlight / daylight.

                            But now imo, the 4.6k may be the best looking camera under tungsten light or in just general "ugly" available light situations. Forget everything else... the actual color reproduction just looks flat out better under fluorescent / Halogen / Incandescent situations. I don't know how much RED has improved with Dragon and Helium, but outside of choosing an MX camera for the general look, it's just a weaker sensor. Less DR, noisier, weaker color and skin tones. It just doesn't hold up (comparitively).
                            Test footage Vimeo page: https://vimeo.com/romanalaivi

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Roman View Post
                              Recently I've acquired a couple of other cameras, and have been shooting RED MX, Alexa EV (Classic version), Digital Bolex and URSA 4.6k. As an owner of each one of those cameras, the thing that's really stood out to me lately, is just how good URSA Mini skin tones look under tungsten light. That used to be a nagging weak point for me with the BMCC, that under incandescent / hologen tungsten light, you could never really see the full range of color (or at least what you might be expecting or thinking there should be..) like you could under sunlight / daylight.

                              But now imo, the 4.6k may be the best looking camera under tungsten light or in just general "ugly" available light situations. Forget everything else... the actual color reproduction just looks flat out better under fluorescent / Halogen / Incandescent situations. I don't know how much RED has improved with Dragon and Helium, but outside of choosing an MX camera for the general look, it's just a weaker sensor. Less DR, noisier, weaker color and skin tones. It just doesn't hold up (comparitively).
                              Wassap Roman. Nice to hear from you. Obviously you're 10-times as busy these days...

                              I must say, that if you are liking what the UM4.6k is giving you for skin tones over the Digital Bolex, then that right there would be just about the BEST praise for it that I have heard thus far.

                              ~Cheers mate!
                              Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
                              Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
                              Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                                Anyone still remember this bad boy? What is the success/failure rates?

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]22859[/ATTACH]

                                http://www.digistor.com/480GB-2-5in-...SD-DIG-PVD480S

                                FYI - the prices on these DIGISTOR drives are LESS than HALF of what the guy mentions in this video. $199 for the 480Gig.
                                Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
                                Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
                                Lights: Every Chinese clone you can imagine

                                Comment

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