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  • #31
    Originally posted by DanKanes View Post
    If you're using the default settings, I can see your point, redcolor 2 + redgamma 2 default settings have a low contrast, low saturation look out of the box. It's easy to build your own curves to add saturation and contrast for viewing in camera - I never had an issue with the cam and did a lot of good work with it that made me a decent amount of money and won me more clients.
    Although I know a few cinematographers around here who consistently get great looking results with Scarlet-X cameras (Mysterium X sensor), it is undeniably quite a bit less forgiving than Dragon, Helium, or UM 4.6K. You do have to know your camera quite well to get good results with an MX sensor.

    That said, one of those cinematographers does all of his color grading in camera, so he doesn't spend time in post on color grading.

    The Dragon sensor is rather sweet... especially if you know what color space and gamma to use in post. If you don't, you do tend to get rather odd results. Helium is a similar situation, except that it has less noise and IMO more natural looking color out of the camera, if you use the new color space + gamma.

    It's been the easiest camera to get great results with that I've ever used, but there's obviously a price premium that goes with that.

    That said, the un-graded color from the UM 4.6K is remarkably close in terms of quality to Helium color. A lot closer than the price difference would lead you to expect. If you won't need 120 fps in 4K or 240fps in 2K, then you're not going to justify the extra money.

    Having almost exactly the same resolution as my Sony A7R combined with 16-bit color and more natural color rendition than my A7R is pretty sweet though.

    Comment


    • #32
      Regarding big brands: we had a Sony F750 break down in the middle of nowhere (actually Moroccan desert) without any help from a dealer in Northern Africa.

      Plus, I was one of the first to have a Red One in Germany, went through all the permutations of their color science and we have two Scarlet MXs and one Epic Dragon now.

      Having tested an UM46 next to them (and lots of Sonys) I can not really understand why so many folks here complain about low light or color quality. And it can't only be sample variation, since Film Academy Ludwigsburg with whom I work on a regular basis just bought three of them. And they have access to Alexas if needed…

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Nomad View Post
        Having tested an UM46 next to them (and lots of Sonys) I can not really understand why so many folks here complain about low light or color quality.
        People complain and/or obsess about low light are usually people who don't know how to use light, and want to shoot films without lighting. They're the sort who brag about the half-assed nature of their lighing, and look at how the camera made up for our crappy lighting, even though in the end the resulting image is pretty drab at best.

        IMO anyone complaining about image quality from a BMD camera, except when there's actually something wrong with it, most likely just doesn't know what they're doing and wouldn't be able to get a decent image with an Alexa or a Red (even Helium) either.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
          I couldn't tell you how the Dragon did because I still haven't been able to get the shots off the card. I could see them on the DIT's computer, but he couldn't get them off the card and now the card is with Panavision / RED and they're still trying to recover the files.
          JB
          John, didn't this happen to you before? I seem to recall that you had some clips that had to be recovered from a camera, but it took so long that the show aired before the clips were restored... I think that was also a Red camera IIRC?

          Shawn

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
            It's not exactly an uncommon thing. I've had this happen on serval RED mags.. as well as Corrupt R3D's which thankfully there's redundead for that https://www.red.com/downloads/4f56854d6261f95a5700067b
            Yes this has happened to me before, a very long time ago on the original RED One.

            I just now heard back from Panavision that RED checked the card and said that it was "fine". Now I've just heard that if I wanted the files recovered we'd have to pay RED for that service.

            What the ?

            Yeah. I'm just a teeny bit less inclined to go RED.

            And sorry, why is it OK that this happens often enough that they have RED undead ?

            JB

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
              It's not exactly an uncommon thing. I've had this happen on serval RED mags.. as well as Corrupt R3D's which thankfully there's redundead for that https://www.red.com/downloads/4f56854d6261f95a5700067b
              I would expect a certain percentage of any proprietary camera storage media to fail... but that sounds like a lot! I've had the same thing happen twice with P2 cards in 8 years of use... if I had several of those cards fail, I would NEVER record without an external recorder as backup. :-)

              Shawn

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
                Yes this has happened to me before, a very long time ago on the original RED One.

                I just now heard back from Panavision that RED checked the card and said that it was "fine". Now I've just heard that if I wanted the files recovered we'd have to pay RED for that service.

                What the ?

                Yeah. I'm just a teeny bit less inclined to go RED.

                And sorry, why is it OK that this happens often enough that they have RED undead ?

                JB
                I would say I've handled quite a bit of media management since 2007.

                RED CF Cards - Card readers could get hot and cause garbled frames. Experienced DITs knew to have multiple readers and swap them every couple of offloads. And also do visual inspection. The other issue could sometimes happen at camera where the pins in CF module could get bent causing actual problems during recording as opposed to transfer issues.

                RED Drives - It has movable parts. Bound to have issues if you can't isolate it. But people used the RED cradle and other strange methods of mounting the things and ran into problems if there was a lot of camera movement. I got the Element Technica Iso mounts very early on and had no issues under normal circumstances. Sure, if you mounted the camera to a Humvee and drove it through a rock park you could probably get it to drop frames but most of the the time we weren't doing that, so those worked well and were well worth the investment.

                RED 1.8 SSD - On one of the movies I was involved with we had 120 RED SSDs. I don't recall any issues with media. And in general, the 1.8s have been very reliable. The ones I own have been rock solid.

                RED Mini Mags - There have been some known issues, some tied to particular firmware builds if I remember correctly. But when it comes to media, RED is generally one of the best when it comes to testing and making sure it is reliable. So much so, that they have been hesitant opening up to 3rd parties which inevitably could come back to bite them in the butt if people started to lose footage and blame the camera. And I'm sure having proprietary media is good for cash flow as well. I don't deny that.

                I have seen issues with Codex mags back in the day due to cable problems, I've seen occasional glitches with SxS, P2, etc. Nothing is perfect. For the most part, the companies usually do a good job with proprietary media and that's why it costs a pretty penny. Once you get into 3rd party, such as with Blackmagic cameras, you are kind of on your own. If you choose to go with a cheap brand that doesn't meet the specs they paste to the front of it, oh well. But honestly, I always choose to stay within manufacturers recommendations and it usually works out. For example, with the BMPCC I stick with the 95MB/s cards and they have been solid. I also buy them from places that are known to have genuine cards and not counterfeits.

                Of course, when you get a bad mag, doesn't matter which camera it is you want to scream. There's nothing more maddening then putting in a lot of effort on a shoot only to find out the footage isn't there, or something is wrong with it. But of course, film had issues too, so not completely new territory here, just different. I recommend to producers and DPs that if there are problems with media, just make sure that the DIT/Data manager's workflow is solid and they have a clear understanding of how to diagnose whether the media itself is damaged or something in their pipeline is not working correctly because the panic that can ensure can be intense and you'd hate to find out it was just a bad cable in the DIT's kit.

                As for RED charging to get the media off the mag, that's not that uncommon. I believe a lot of the camera manufacturers do this. Again, an experienced DIT might be able to dig in and do this on their own, depending on how corrupt the media is. REDUndead is not infallible, at least from my experience but at least there is a tool to use in the field if and when you run up against an issue. And I don't think they offer it because it happens a lot, they offer it because a lot of us requested it in the early days so that we had a tool available in case anything happened and we needed to address it in the field.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jason Finnigan
                  Today, 06:00 PM
                  Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post


                  And sorry, why is it OK that this happens often enough that they have RED undead ?

                  JB
                  It's not!
                  Redundead was created for all the knuckleheads who format hot mags - like most things digital - it's easy to blame the new technology instead of the often human error.

                  But it's true, every brand has this problem - I've gotten over 25 emails in the last 6 months from people who formatted hot Alexa Mini Mags and couldn't recover the files.

                  Pretty sure they wish they had an "Arri UDF undead"

                  We get it though, this is the Blackmagic forum.

                  Believe me, I'm far from a fanboy, I like using all cameras, and Red has made a lot of mistakes (and continue to) but I have gotten tremendous results from them, and I find it a fiction to think it's any easier to get results from BMD cameras than from red. Any camera is only as good as the human running it.
                  Last edited by DanKanes; 02-01-2017, 07:07 PM.
                  Dan Kanes
                  www.dankanes.com

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                    RED Drives - It has movable parts. Bound to have issues if you can't isolate it. But people used the RED cradle and other strange methods of mounting the things and ran into problems if there was a lot of camera movement. I got the Element Technica Iso mounts very early on and had no issues under normal circumstances.
                    This was the exact setup I had when I had an issue the first time around. RED DRIVE on the ET ISO mount. No crazy movement. Just a clip / sector that went bad. It was recovered (aside from a few seconds) but it took many months to get the file back, well after the show had gone to air.


                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post

                    Once you get into 3rd party, such as with Blackmagic cameras, you are kind of on your own.
                    You left Arriflex and Canon off that list of companies that have chosen a path you're inferring is less reliable.


                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                    If you choose to go with a cheap brand that doesn't meet the specs they paste to the front of it, oh well.
                    Yes. But in the recent painful example I had, it was the manufactures closed system that failed and not only that, I have to pay to get it recovered when their proprietary software didn't do the job.


                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                    Of course, when you get a bad mag, doesn't matter which camera it is you want to scream. There's nothing more maddening then putting in a lot of effort on a shoot only to find out the footage isn't there, or something is wrong with it.
                    It just shouldn't ever happen. Ever.

                    I've had it happen only a handful of times. Twice now with RED. Once on a Sony F55. Once on an Alexa Mini (but we knew it happened on the spot and could go again). And once on a 2.5k Blackmagic that was really a bad batch of those terrible OCZ SSD drives.

                    Of all those cameras I've shot the most amount on RED and Blackmagic. So far the RED is the more "unreliable". (also more prone to software glitches and flakiness)

                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                    , just make sure that the DIT/Data manager's workflow is solid and they have a clear understanding of how to diagnose whether the media itself is damaged or something in their pipeline is not working correctly because the panic that can ensure can be intense and you'd hate to find out it was just a bad cable in the DIT's kit.
                    Great advise. However, in both my cases we did indeed have the correct workflow in place. I had a RED experienced DIT and we were at Panavision shootin in their test bay. They tried REDUNDEAD first and then sent it to RED, who did nothing more than say there was no problem with the media. And really, if the media is OK, but I can't get the file off it ??? Unless I pay ?? How is that good practice ?


                    Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                    As for RED charging to get the media off the mag, that's not that uncommon. I believe a lot of the camera manufacturers do this. Again, an experienced DIT might be able to dig in and do this on their own, depending on how corrupt the media is. REDUndead is not infallible, at least from my experience but at least there is a tool to use in the field if and when you run up against an issue. And I don't think they offer it because it happens a lot, they offer it because a lot of us requested it in the early days so that we had a tool available in case anything happened and we needed to address it in the field.
                    I have never heard of any company charging for data recovery from camera media that wasn't the company itself. I've done this with Sony (unsuccessfully but they tried and didn't recover the file and didn't charge) and the first time with RED they didn't charge. BM tried to recover my file at no charge from the bad SSD and I know they've tried to recover other customers files from bad media.

                    Who else charges for this ? And why should I pay if the media wasn't to blame ?

                    RED has always required inside knowledge to make them really sing. That's fine. But I would disagree you need the same degree of skill and inside knowledge of traps and hangups for almost any other camera workflow.


                    JB

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                    • #40
                      I wonder about the wisdom of a thread title like this

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
                        This was the exact setup I had when I had an issue the first time around. RED DRIVE on the ET ISO mount. No crazy movement. Just a clip / sector that went bad. It was recovered (aside from a few seconds) but it took many months to get the file back, well after the show had gone to air.
                        Spinning drives were never ideal, but at the time it was what they had available with decent capacity. I was very fortunate, and in fact I still have both 320GB drives and still use them in a pinch on personal projects.


                        You left Arriflex and Canon off that list of companies that have chosen a path you're inferring is less reliable.
                        I said such as Black Magic cameras, not exclusively BM cameras. Anything that uses off-the-shelf media that has not been specifically tested to meet the exact demands of that cameras runs the risk of failure. However, as I mentioned, I have had no issues with the recommended SD cards for the BMPCC, so overall I've been happy with that. I know people have had issues with SSDs on some of the other BM cameras, but I can't speak from personal experience on that.


                        Yes. But in the recent painful example I had, it was the manufactures closed system that failed and not only that, I have to pay to get it recovered when their proprietary software didn't do the job.
                        I would still contend that of the RED SSD media that is out in the wild (and that number is very high from what I understand), there are relatively few failures. If we happen to be one of the failures, that sucks, and we're going to be pissed. I understand that completely. But I've never felt RED was on the high side of media failure, at least not in my experience. And like I said, I've been on some big shows where we had over a hundred mags, so that's a pretty good sample size for seeing how often there are issues.


                        It just shouldn't ever happen. Ever.
                        And cameras shouldn't break, and lenses shouldn't be out of alignment, and motors shouldn't fail. But all of that stuff happens. I agree that media should be one of the things least likely to fail. Because it's the container for an incredible amount of work. And I have always had a policy of "no frame left behind" which basically means unless something got messed up in the actual writing of information to the card, there is no excuse for media not getting archived with zero frames damaged.

                        I've had it happen only a handful of times. Twice now with RED. Once on a Sony F55. Once on an Alexa Mini (but we knew it happened on the spot and could go again). And once on a 2.5k Blackmagic that was really a bad batch of those terrible OCZ SSD drives.
                        That's frustrating as hell, and I understand your pain.

                        Of all those cameras I've shot the most amount on RED and Blackmagic. So far the RED is the more "unreliable". (also more prone to software glitches and flakiness)
                        I think this just comes down to personal experiences. One person may have had more failures on Canon, or Panasonic or Sony. And will then be skeptical about those cameras and the media. In the early days of RED, I remember hearing horror stories about overheating and other serious camera problems and I didn't experience a lot of issues that were others were having. Not to say there weren't small glitches and problems occasionally, but again sometimes comes down to what we experience first hand.

                        Great advise. However, in both my cases we did indeed have the correct workflow in place. I had a RED experienced DIT and we were at Panavision shootin in their test bay. They tried REDUNDEAD first and then sent it to RED, who did nothing more than say there was no problem with the media. And really, if the media is OK, but I can't get the file off it ??? Unless I pay ?? How is that good practice ?
                        Were they able to retrieve log files from the media?

                        I have never heard of any company charging for data recovery from camera media that wasn't the company itself. I've done this with Sony (unsuccessfully but they tried and didn't recover the file and didn't charge) and the first time with RED they didn't charge. BM tried to recover my file at no charge from the bad SSD and I know they've tried to recover other customers files from bad media.
                        Who else charges for this ? And why should I pay if the media wasn't to blame ?
                        I thought Panasonic and Sony charged but maybe I'm wrong on that.

                        RED has always required inside knowledge to make them really sing. That's fine. But I would disagree you need the same degree of skill and inside knowledge of traps and hangups for almost any other camera workflow.
                        I don't know. RED's certainly have their quirks, and because there are many ways to build them because of the modular system I can understand some confusion arising for those who don't use them often. Add in the various ways it can be processed, the continuous improvements to color science, firmware specific issues, etc. I can see how one might arrive at that conclusion. But they have also improved in a lot of ways too and given their still relatively short time in the camera business, I think some of that is still being fine tuned.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
                          I have seen issues with Codex mags back in the day due to cable problems, I've seen occasional glitches with SxS, P2, etc. Nothing is perfect. For the most part, the companies usually do a good job with proprietary media and that's why it costs a pretty penny. Once you get into 3rd party, such as with Blackmagic cameras, you are kind of on your own. If you choose to go with a cheap brand that doesn't meet the specs they paste to the front of it, oh well. But honestly, I always choose to stay within manufacturers recommendations and it usually works out. For example, with the BMPCC I stick with the 95MB/s cards and they have been solid. I also buy them from places that are known to have genuine cards and not counterfeits.
                          That's why I have sticked to 95MB/s as well, and stayed away from larger SDXC cards, although others have had success with them. ~20 min of RAW footage isn't that bad, after all.
                          https://guerillafilmsoldier.wordpress.com/

                          Camera
                          Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
                          Zenit Meteor 5-1 f/1.9 17-69mm
                          LOMO 16 OKS 3-10-1 f/2.1 10 mm
                          Krasnogorsk-3 pistol grip with telescopic shoulder stock
                          Fancier FC-270A Tripod with FC-02H Fluid Head

                          Workstation
                          Windows 10 Pro
                          Resolve 12.5.4.019
                          ASUS X99-A
                          Intel Core i7 5820K 3.3 GHz 15MB
                          16GB RAM Corsair DDR4 2133MHz CL13 Vengeance
                          ASUS GeForce GTX 1060 Dual OC 3GB
                          Samsung 750 EVO 500GB SSD
                          Seagate Desktop 2TB HDD

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                          • #43
                            I think you mean 95GB cards Thomas, 95MB/s is the card's Speed, not size.
                            Cherrs

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                            • #44
                              My experience with RED too. For the RED One we had nothing else but the spinning drives for some shooting situations and they were very critical. Our only failure was filming from a Volvo sports car, even if the drive was isolated from the frame as much as possible. Since then, we never had a failure with any Red mag, but that's the way it should be, given the price for their proprietary SSDs. I once had a failure with a crappy SSD in a BMCC. But never had one with SD cards in the BMPCC, also strictly using the Sandisk 64 GB 95 MB/s versions too. I was used to them from a hacked GH2 and they seem to be some of the best SDs ever made.

                              Regarding image quality, colors in particular, you need to know your camera very well to make it shine, be it Red or BM. Only the Alexa is giving pretty nice footage with only a LUT attached, that's why it's so popular with productions where there is hardly any time or money for grading. And no camera delivers good footage without proper light ;-)

                              Just my two cents (Euro)

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Denny Smith View Post
                                I think you mean 95GB cards Thomas, 95MB/s is the card's Speed, not size.
                                Cherrs
                                I stick with my 64 GB / 95Mb/s SDXC cards. I wouldn't dare to go for any of the larger ones. Don't want any dropped frames and such, or damaged content.
                                https://guerillafilmsoldier.wordpress.com/

                                Camera
                                Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
                                Zenit Meteor 5-1 f/1.9 17-69mm
                                LOMO 16 OKS 3-10-1 f/2.1 10 mm
                                Krasnogorsk-3 pistol grip with telescopic shoulder stock
                                Fancier FC-270A Tripod with FC-02H Fluid Head

                                Workstation
                                Windows 10 Pro
                                Resolve 12.5.4.019
                                ASUS X99-A
                                Intel Core i7 5820K 3.3 GHz 15MB
                                16GB RAM Corsair DDR4 2133MHz CL13 Vengeance
                                ASUS GeForce GTX 1060 Dual OC 3GB
                                Samsung 750 EVO 500GB SSD
                                Seagate Desktop 2TB HDD

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