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  • #16
    RED MX is realistically ISO320, doesn't have the same DR and is heavier and cumbersome by comparison.

    My opinion.

    JB

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    • #17
      Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
      RED MX is realistically ISO320, doesn't have the same DR and is heavier and cumbersome by comparison.

      My opinion.

      JB
      Technically yes, but I haven't had much issue rating it at 500, which for me has been the sweetspot. 800 I think stretches it a bit.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by stevesherrick View Post
        Technically yes, but I haven't had much issue rating it at 500, which for me has been the sweetspot. 800 I think stretches it a bit.
        Well you can rate it wherever you like you're just trading highlights for shadows. I shot many many hours with them and kept coming back to 320. Even at 320 the camera clips into highlights very quickly.

        JB

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        • #19
          Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
          Well you can rate it wherever you like you're just trading highlights for shadows. I shot many many hours with them and kept coming back to 320. Even at 320 the camera clips into highlights very quickly.

          JB
          Yeah setting the MX to 320 when you have any highlights in the shot does not yield good rolloff, so essentially this is shooting yourself in the foot.

          Rating an MX at 320 outdoors is a huge mistake. 800 outdoors for highlight protection. 320 indoors if you're trying to gain contrast and increase shadow detail with less noise.

          Everyone has different experiences with these things but I've found if you rate MX at 800 outdoors / high key scenes it will behave very consistently.

          I don't recommend anyone buy a red one MX these days. Boot times and ergonomics not worth image quality. Epic or scarlet MX are another story - still very relevant cameras in terms of usability, functionality (extremely important) and image quality.

          4.6K and 4K Ursa Mini are good cams. Hard rule on UM 4K - can't really rate past 200 for low key scenes. Rate at 400 for mid key day interior, only rate 800 if you have blasting sunlight. 4.6k - I feel same but kind of acceptable for mid-key scenes at 800 (don't depend on it) full daylight at 800 is fine. 400 or 200 for low key scenes.

          Big rule of thumb for any of these cameras - test your filters - ND brand and batch can make a big difference.

          Now that Ursa and Mini have tunable color shift (green/magenta) you can really check and set your bias before rolling - oh - one more thing - can't really trust the color balance of any of the built in Blackmagic monitors. Sorry they really pretty much are for framing only, if you're concerned about color balance - gotta check on a Calibrated Monitor.
          Last edited by DanKanes; 01-29-2017, 09:48 PM.
          Dan Kanes
          www.dankanes.com

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          • #20
            Colours seems to be very thin with RED MX sensor.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
              Colours seems to be very thin with RED MX sensor.
              If you're using the default settings, I can see your point, redcolor 2 + redgamma 2 default settings have a low contrast, low saturation look out of the box. It's easy to build your own curves to add saturation and contrast for viewing in camera - I never had an issue with the cam and did a lot of good work with it that made me a decent amount of money and won me more clients.

              I'd argue the color coming out of Blackmagic cameras has weird tints and biases (blue brown Orange thing ?) but I feel like most of the footage is so malleable with both cameras it's really easy to get what you want with some practice. Even old MX sensor footage gets new life if processed via redwidegamutRGB + Log3G10 + output LUT.
              Dan Kanes
              www.dankanes.com

              Comment


              • #22
                Great

                Originally posted by Tommy Davis View Post
                While apple has stopped supporting quicktime on windows Premiere and Resolve (dunno about Avid) have released updates to their software allowing you to view and edit ProRes material without quicktime. However it is limited to only reading ProRes, you cannot export any flavor of ProRes from a windows machine. Though I think you'll find DNxHD and Cineform are suitable alternatives.
                I have a black magic camera that shoots in ProRes. So I can play it back but can't export to ProRes?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by offbeatbryce View Post
                  I have a black magic camera that shoots in ProRes. So I can play it back but can't export to ProRes?
                  Yeh I shoot prores on my BMCC all the time and edit in premiere (hardly)...and Davinci Resolve (mostly) on Windows all the time. I export to my master file as DNxHR HQ
                  Darren Scott
                  Freelance Director/Director of Photography


                  https://vimeo.com/jambredzvisions/videos

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                    RED MX looks to be 12 stops at best. I won't say it is absolutely horrid but it does feel like an older generation sensor that doesn't quite live with the same expectation you get with Dragon or Mini 4.6k.
                    Not so. The MX is 13 stops at least. I can say that anecdotally because I'm so used to the BMCC/Pocket, and this feels the same in terms of DR, but here's a test vs Alexa:
                    http://www.provideocoalition.com/epi...dynamic_range/
                    "I’d rate Epic generously at 13.5 stops DR, and conservatively at 13 stops DR."

                    Originally posted by John Brawley View Post
                    RED MX is realistically ISO320, doesn't have the same DR and is heavier and cumbersome by comparison.

                    My opinion.

                    JB
                    Note that I was recommending the Epic or Scarlet if you're going MX, not the Red One, which is big and heavy. Dan addressed the ISO rating thing below, but here's a video where they test pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that the MX "Look fine pushed up to ISO 1600 – 2000"
                    http://indiecinemaacademy.com/red-ep...ression-video/

                    Originally posted by DanKanes View Post
                    Yeah setting the MX to 320 when you have any highlights in the shot does not yield good rolloff, so essentially this is shooting yourself in the foot.

                    Rating an MX at 320 outdoors is a huge mistake. 800 outdoors for highlight protection. 320 indoors if you're trying to gain contrast and increase shadow detail with less noise.

                    Everyone has different experiences with these things but I've found if you rate MX at 800 outdoors / high key scenes it will behave very consistently.

                    I don't recommend anyone buy a red one MX these days. Boot times and ergonomics not worth image quality. Epic or scarlet MX are another story - still very relevant cameras in terms of usability, functionality (extremely important) and image quality.

                    4.6K and 4K Ursa Mini are good cams. Hard rule on UM 4K - can't really rate past 200 for low key scenes. Rate at 400 for mid key day interior, only rate 800 if you have blasting sunlight. 4.6k - I feel same but kind of acceptable for mid-key scenes at 800 (don't depend on it) full daylight at 800 is fine. 400 or 200 for low key scenes.

                    Big rule of thumb for any of these cameras - test your filters - ND brand and batch can make a big difference.

                    Now that Ursa and Mini have tunable color shift (green/magenta) you can really check and set your bias before rolling - oh - one more thing - can't really trust the color balance of any of the built in Blackmagic monitors. Sorry they really pretty much are for framing only, if you're concerned about color balance - gotta check on a Calibrated Monitor.
                    Well said!

                    Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                    Colours seems to be very thin with RED MX sensor.
                    I'd encourage you to give it another go. This camera, like BMD cams, is designed to be graded. Having said that, even without grading I find the color to be pretty amazing and actually improving constantly, even on the older cameras. What color version and gamma are you rolling with?

                    I'd say that the companies that have the best ootb color are (in no particular order):

                    Canon
                    Red
                    Arri
                    BMD

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by fahnon View Post
                      Not so. The MX is 13 stops at least. I can say that anecdotally because I'm so used to the BMCC/Pocket, and this feels the same in terms of DR, but here's a test vs Alexa:
                      http://www.provideocoalition.com/epi...dynamic_range/
                      "I’d rate Epic generously at 13.5 stops DR, and conservatively at 13 stops DR."



                      Note that I was recommending the Epic or Scarlet if you're going MX, not the Red One, which is big and heavy. Dan addressed the ISO rating thing below, but here's a video where they test pretty extensively and come to the conclusion that the MX "Look fine pushed up to ISO 1600 – 2000"
                      http://indiecinemaacademy.com/red-ep...ression-video/



                      Well said!



                      I'd encourage you to give it another go. This camera, like BMD cams, is designed to be graded. Having said that, even without grading I find the color to be pretty amazing and actually improving constantly, even on the older cameras. What color version and gamma are you rolling with?

                      I'd say that the companies that have the best ootb color are (in no particular order):

                      Canon
                      Red
                      Arri
                      BMD
                      How you rate is different to me
                      I think BMPCC is about 12 stop but I agree with you it is about similar to MX, however BMPCC feels more DR because more of it is on the highlights.
                      However you mentioned on your previous post that even the RED MX sensor is better than Ursa Mini 4.6k so basically you are saying 13 stop beats 15 stop. I rate MX image quality as a distant shadow of the Dragon or Mini 4.6k.

                      I think you have let your bad experience with BMD support cloud your judgement.
                      Not trying to defend BMD as I have been critical about it QC.
                      Last edited by Taikonaut; 01-31-2017, 10:34 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Taikonaut View Post
                        How you rate is different to me
                        I think BMPCC is about 12 stop but I agree with you it is about similar to MX, however BMPCC feels more DR because more of it is on the highlights.
                        However you mentioned on your previous post that even the RED MX sensor is better than Ursa Mini 4.6k so basically you are saying 13 stop beats 15 stop. MX image quality is a distant shadow of the Dragon or Mini 4.6k.

                        I think you have let your bad experience with BMD support cloud your judgement.
                        Not trying to defend BMD as I have been critical about it QC.
                        "I think you have let your bad experience with BMD support cloud your judgement"
                        No doubt I've had a terrible experience with BMD and the 4.6k, but I also included links to back up my opinions.

                        Subjectively, I do like the image on my Scarlet more than my former 4.6k, even with less DR. I still have the DNGs from when I had the camera and have made direct comparisons from alike scenes. The DR on the 4.6k is super impressive, no question, but there's not a massive difference there between the two cams to my eye.

                        "so basically you are saying 13 stop beats 15 stop"

                        No, I'd love as much DR as I can get, and will likely upgrade to a Dragon sensor at some point. But DR is only one (important) aspect of IQ, right? My statement was that the old sensor compares favorably. I meant that as an overall, not talking about that one aspect. I'm not talking about a spec sheet here; the Ursa is newer and better on paper. But when I look at the images from my current camera, I like them better than the last one. For the record, I'd consider them in the same league, but the MX doesn't have any of the magenta or crosshatching or FPN issues I encountered and that's heavily factored in to my opinion.

                        You've probably seen this, but you can see them side by side in this video: https://vimeo.com/166738913
                        (note that the Scarlet has had NR used and would look even sharper otherwise)

                        I certainly disagree with the statement that the "MX image quality is a distant shadow of the Dragon or Mini 4.6k". I'd say the MX and 4.6k are on the same general level (with an edge to MX), and the Dragon is better than both, but the real leap comes with Helium IMO.

                        The MX sensor is extremely good...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I went through this debate myself a little while back when I was looking to get into a camera that could do the HFR and 4k+ stuff.

                          Now, I admit that I am a serial camera guy. I mostly just shoot short films for fun or shoot small promos for charities I care about. I have the occasional client gig thrown in here or there to keep things spicy, but my work in animation butters my bread and I'm under no illusions otherwise. As such I move from platform to platform because a) my day job is healthy enough to afford it, and b) I enjoy learning how different camera ecosystems work. Some people get RVs and jet skis for their leisure diversions- I do cam gear.

                          After shooting my most recent short on the D16, I felt like it was time to try something different. The company going kaput, the bespoke nature of each camera's individual build, and the odd random freezes and SSD mounting errors left me wary of getting caught out with a brick that no one could/would repair. So reluctantly I moved on from it. Lovely image, kinda klunky to work with in a full narrative setting, though.

                          Funds in hand, with some extra savings from a freelance gig- I had a budget set aside to get something different. And I hemmed and hawed a good couple months as to which way to go. I even considered a used Alexa package for a bit, but then came back to earth and forced myself to stay in budget and not reach for that glorious German goodness.

                          It was either a used Red Epic MX (or Dragon if I could find one at a steal of a price that wasn't an actual stolen camera), or the UM46k.

                          I've owned a BMPCC and have rented the Micro a few times, so I'm familiar with the flow of things on BMD cams. I've messed with a ton of UM46 DNGs- it's super friendly to grade. The UM46k makes a lovely image- when you get a good one. And that's the rub. Just waaay too many stories of folks who got stuck with a lemon. Or two. Or three. Which would be troubling enough, but not untenable if a sure remedy could be found in the (likely?) event that you were the proud owner of said lemon. But support seemed as variable as the cameras- some folks getting great support, others getting the sharp stick in the eye treatment. Let's just say that the situation didn't exactly conjure one to think of the word "reliable". If we're talking about a Micro or a Pocket, hey, take your lumps. It's a sub $1k camera. But a $5k camera, plus VF and accessories and media? If I'm gonna drop 10g's I want something (and some one) I can rely on.

                          I had a whole UM46k kit in my shopping cart on B&H for a month and the money in the bank to buy it, but I just could never pull the trigger on it. And I desperately wanted to buy into it, I really did. I just never could bring myself to hit "Checkout".

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                          • #28
                            Not sure if this has been mentioned but Vegas Pro 14 now imports and in addition exports to Prores on windows machines.


                            Vegas export prores.jpg

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Henryo View Post
                              Not sure if this has been mentioned but Vegas Pro 14 now imports and in addition exports to Prores on windows machines.


                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]22795[/ATTACH]
                              Now THAT is cool news. I'm gonna look at how it does with red R3D files, probably well. Could be a decent transcoding option.
                              Dan Kanes
                              www.dankanes.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I've had bad service / reliability with most of the big brands.

                                About 4 weeks ago in pre for the series I'm shooting right now we tested a Dragon alongside an Alexa Mini and UM4.6K.

                                I couldn't tell you how the Dragon did because I still haven't been able to get the shots off the card. I could see them on the DIT's computer, but he couldn't get them off the card and now the card is with Panavision / RED and they're still trying to recover the files.

                                So guess which of those three cameras isn't on the show. I haven't been personally following it up, but that's a pretty bad look for what should be a mature camera platform. And I know that every camera has issues too so you need to see them service / reliability issues in context. I'm still waiting to see if anyone was able to recover that card and I'm two weeks into this series now.

                                As to the look....It seems to be a trope that when ever someone complains about not liking RED files they're either using the old or wrong settings or there's some new colour science coming along real soon now. They've always had in my view a very narrow sweetspot where they can look good, but they fall off a cliff very quickly as soon as you're outside that comfort zone of lighting level / contrast / colour mix. Yeah you can grade them to be better, but that's not a blank cheque to make the images look amazing either.

                                Meanwhile, the show I'm on now has both Alexa Mini and UM4.6K. We had some work on a scene that means we were shooting well after sunset for scenes that should have been day. I wish I could show you all the A/B shots from the colourist (from a big "brand" post house you'd all know) along with his comments about the UM4.6K recovering better than the Alexa mini and especially with regards to noise.

                                JB

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