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View Full Version : Re: Afterglow- What Color is Casey's Jacket Supposed to be?



dop16mm
08-31-2012, 10:19 AM
I will be the first to admit that I'm not viewing on anything resembling a calibrated monitor, and I've not gone into the RAW's myself, as ProRes is more my interest at this time.

I assume that the Jacket is Red or some sort of crimson anyway, as the jacket matches the lipstick, and that is how it has been presented in JB's Vimeo edits, and others regrades of the RAW's. So color me shocked that the camera original ProRes footage is not even close to this. I view the Log version as a kind of salmon Pink, that takes 2 applications of the color corrector to slide enough saturation to get close to the Red I've been seeing. Again no experience with log grading, but isn't it about squeezing the most exposure into the shot, I clearly don't understand how squeezing out the color accomplishes that.

Also I assume that nobody has looked at the video gama clips, because I've seen no mention of the fact that the Jacket is tangerine orange in those clips. To my eyes the skin tones looked fine so you'd have to do an isolated color swap to get the Jacket right.

I'm loving what I'm seeing in the quality of the footage, but this issue is causing some concern. I hope that some of the delay is in tweaking the color-science of the in-camera de-bayers.

If a resolve system is going to be a requirement of using this camera (as well as a trusted still camera for color reference) I may have to re-evaluate. I'm really hoping to be able to start just cutting ProRes on my old system, and move up to Raw/log budget allows.

rick.lang
08-31-2012, 07:30 PM
John Brawley has said her jacket is fire engine red, and that can be a difficult colour to capture.

mhood
08-31-2012, 07:34 PM
I plan to start each shoot with a few seconds of a black/grey/white digital target. It'll work for levels and white balance too. It's become quite the habit for me with my 7D.

John Brawley
08-31-2012, 07:55 PM
Fire engine red.

And yes it's a difficult colour to capture well.

LOG does need a lot of saturation.

There is a difference between 12bit DNG and 10bit ProRes.

Exposure ABSOLUTELY affects colour saturation. Once the chroma is clipped, like brightness, there's no coming back. They are interlinked.

JB.

dustylense
08-31-2012, 11:57 PM
Fire engine red.

And yes it's a difficult colour to capture well.

LOG does need a lot of saturation.

There is a difference between 12bit DNG and 10bit ProRes.

Exposure ABSOLUTELY affects colour saturation. Once the chroma is clipped, like brightness, there's no coming back. They are interlinked.

JB.
Hi John,

Just a critic as you saw the real deal. Say the client was on set and the lipstick and "fire engine red" jacket were the product, would you say this passes the test for client? Essentially just my CC and light moves in FCPX. 842

John Brawley
09-01-2012, 12:00 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking ? A critique of the grade ?

It looks pretty nice to me. The reds look accurate to what I remember, within the bounds of laptop monitoring gamut.

I think I'd prefer her skin tones to be a little lifted, which I think would also help the "beauty" and I always like contrast. But that's what's cool. So many options.

jb

dustylense
09-01-2012, 12:04 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking ? A critique of the grade ?

It looks pretty nice to me. The reds look accurate to what I remember, within the bounds of laptop monitoring gamut.

I think I'd prefer her skin tones to be a little lifted, which I think would also help the "beauty" and I always like contrast. But that's what's cool. So many options.

jb
Well the thread deals with the red. This was graded a few days ago. Not really looking for a critic on over all image, just confirming the red and in a sRGB color space of course. Here is a bit with some looks I placed on the footage mostly to see just how far the files could be played around without making it a vampire look. It was mostly a run though of STOCK Fcpx filters as example for those that might be afraid of Resolve:
https://vimeo.com/48411355

nickjbedford
09-01-2012, 12:22 AM
This is the red that I got out of the ProRes capture. To be honest, I didn't even think there was any issue with the colour. It's a strong red. Whether it's the red you might expect or John was looking at I don't know. The ProRes is a different beast in colour grading but should give you something you can bring back to a similar result to the raw files (within reason). I haven't had any troubles with the couple ProRes log shots I've tinkered with.

http://www.nickbedford.com/uploads/casey_graded.jpg

dustylense
09-01-2012, 12:32 AM
@nick,

I agree. In fact, after playing with that prores file i kinda was relieved that they put prores on the camera. I'm almost partial to it. ALthough I'm a RAW religious fanatic in the stills world, I was happy to see that the prores translation to the sensor was a highly acceptable result. Having both and seeing Johns prores gifts solidified my intention to invest. This camera could be housed in a shoebox and I would still buy it. Nice grade Nick.

nickjbedford
09-01-2012, 01:41 AM
@nick,

I agree. In fact, after playing with that prores file i kinda was relieved that they put prores on the camera. I'm almost partial to it. ALthough I'm a RAW religious fanatic in the stills world, I was happy to see that the prores translation to the sensor was a highly acceptable result. Having both and seeing Johns prores gifts solidified my intention to invest. This camera could be housed in a shoebox and I would still buy it. Nice grade Nick.

Trust me, I'm a raw photographer through and through and ProRes is turning out to be just what I need in the video side of things. I know raw, but 25 of them per second is way too much data for me right now! Haha.

dustylense
09-01-2012, 02:39 AM
Trust me, I'm a raw photographer through and through and ProRes is turning out to be just what I need in the video side of things. I know raw, but 25 of them per second is way too much data for me right now! Haha.

Yes, that will take an adjustment or just a fat wallet, both in capture and storage. I really want to see some more situations captured in Prores. There was something very pleasant in the Brawley close up pool shot in Prores. Noise wise, structure of the noise just felt tighter and uniform. Anybody else see that or feel that way? John B???

John Brawley
09-01-2012, 02:44 AM
Yes, that will take an adjustment or just a fat wallet, both in capture and storage. I really want to see some more situations captured in Prores. There was something very pleasant in the Brawley close up pool shot in Prores. Noise wise, structure of the noise just felt tighter and uniform. Anybody else see that or feel that way? John B???

There seems to me to be a kind of softening to the image that goes beyond the simple mathematics of 1920 Vs 2.5k files. The ProRes has a lovely quality that has a kind of softness that isn't to do with resolution. It's actually hard to describe. I've often found that I prefer the inherent look of the ProRes out of the camera once graded compared to the DNG's. Maybe it's the way the camera Debayers and I think with the way ProRes works, the compression also looses a little of the superfine detail as well.

It just seems a bit more flattering OOC than the DNG's. What I haven't really explored much is if I render ProRes files form Resolve if I get the same result.

jb

dustylense
09-01-2012, 04:05 AM
There seems to me to be a kind of softening to the image that goes beyond the simple mathematics of 1920 Vs 2.5k files. The ProRes has a lovely quality that has a kind of softness that isn't to do with resolution. It's actually hard to describe. I've often found that I prefer the inherent look of the ProRes out of the camera once graded compared to the DNG's. Maybe it's the way the camera Debayers and I think with the way ProRes works, the compression also looses a little of the superfine detail as well.

It just seems a bit more flattering OOC than the DNG's. What I haven't really explored much is if I render ProRes files form Resolve if I get the same result.

jb

Yeah, I just felt it was a completely different feel than the DNG. But in a very positive way from at least your upload of the pool scene. Promising to say the least as an alternative to the mass storage DNG will require. The beauty is that if you don't think the Prores will work for a certain shot, just hit that shot out with DNG. I guess the next step is to mix DNG and PR together in different situations and see if they remain seamless....

DanielJ
09-01-2012, 05:51 AM
The beauty is that if you don't think the Prores will work for a certain shot, just hit that shot out with DNG. I guess the next step is to mix DNG and PR together in different situations and see if they remain seamless....

That's how I plan on approaching it as well. I hadn't really thought about how the two would mix until you mentioned it...

Tim Hole
09-01-2012, 07:11 AM
I am looking forward to experimenting with the two. I will definitely shoot raw if I am doing any effects, keying etc...but if ProRes has a certain softer quality then i am definitely interested in it. One of the reason I like some of my legacy lenses is because the quality of glass is excellent but the sharpness and micro-contrast can vary considerably. This can be a hindrance and dangerous at times but if like the Alexa there is a natural quality to the image that softens it slightly I'm all for that.

RyGuy
09-01-2012, 07:53 AM
There seems to me to be a kind of softening to the image that goes beyond the simple mathematics of 1920 Vs 2.5k files. The ProRes has a lovely quality that has a kind of softness that isn't to do with resolution. It's actually hard to describe. I've often found that I prefer the inherent look of the ProRes out of the camera once graded compared to the DNG's. Maybe it's the way the camera Debayers and I think with the way ProRes works, the compression also looses a little of the superfine detail as well.

It just seems a bit more flattering OOC than the DNG's. What I haven't really explored much is if I render ProRes files form Resolve if I get the same result.

jb

I did pretty much that with the very first DNG files you released. I made a logish image in Resolve preserving all the highlight and shadow details, and then exported them as Prores 422hq and sent to Apple Color (which I'm more familiar with than resolve). When I saw the outputted prores log files, I was like, "Yah, thats the stuff." Something magical happened. Thats when I saw the spirit of the Alexa in her.

dop16mm
09-01-2012, 08:58 AM
I guess my concern is with the Video ProRes, as this is what one would use for a fast turn-around, set the white balance, no color correction. The footage looked fine if you didn't know what color it was, the skin tones looked right, the exposure looked close. Hand it to an editor ans he would go with it, the jacket issue might not show up until delivery. I know that red causes problems, I've been shooting video (and some film) for over 20 years, it will bleed in analogue, badly stair-step in low bit codecs etc..., but I've never had orange instead of red.

I'm not slamming anything, just putting it out there, I hope there is some tuning of the de-bayer going on. I've never been more excited about a camera release. RED was to expensive, DSLR's are missing key features, low end pro cams are crippled against more expensive offerings and on and on. Except for one short shot on a borrowed 7D, this will be the largest sensor I've used for motion, so I'm not concerned about that. But I'd like to be confident that if needed I could shoot ProRes-video, and not be concerned about the color shift.