PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on the Panny GH4 compared to BMCC and BMPCC...



flean
02-07-2014, 12:45 PM
yesterday, they officially announced the panasonic GH4 and I'd like to hear some of the thoughts from BMCC and BMPCC shooters.
Personally, they are making a big deal about it but I think, based on the specs I've read, I am not so impressed and unless it is hacked by ML to have raw capacities, I don't think it is as much a game changer as the BMCC. But I may be wrong....what do you think?

BM4EVER
02-07-2014, 07:43 PM
They're very different cameras, with different selling points.

In terms of 4K, the GH4 is half the price of the BM4K. It won't be anywhere near as gradeable as the BM4K, but if you can get your look in camera, it has a lot of plusses besides the price. Smaller form factor, great for anonymity and just look at those quadcopter 4K shots they're getting - try that on the BM4K! ;) Higher frame rates are very desirable to a lot of people...

But I agree with you that the BMCC is more of a gamechanger. Heck, I'm beginning to think the BMCC is the best value 4K camera on the market - even though it doesn't shoot 4K, uprezzing 2.5k uncompressed looks GREAT, with the added benefit of the greater DR.

It's all good, and the GH4 is a wake-up call to DSLR makers in terms of 4K, the Canon 1DC was ridiculously overpriced.

NAB will be very exciting - I wonder if BMD will announce a 4K version of their hyperdeck shuttle?

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-07-2014, 08:41 PM
… NAB will be very exciting - I wonder if BMD will announce a 4K version of their hyperdeck shuttle?

I think they will (http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?3234-What-will-BMD-announce-at-NAB&p=105381&viewfull=1#post105381), but when they ship anything is the wild card.

Hampus Lager
02-08-2014, 03:53 AM
Panasonic has spec wise done something right. I think people who only shot on video cameras and DSLRs will jump on this very quickly. 4K, high frame rates, pretty good stills camera, the option of the base with pro in and outputs... But just like BM4EVER says: The BMCC raw upscales so nicely to 4K if I need it. The in camera codecs are so good and convenient without an external base for it. Gearing the GH4 up for external 4K for 10bit 4:2:2? No thanks, I'm all good. It's enough with power and monitors on the BMCC, haha.

Taikonaut
02-08-2014, 04:09 AM
12 stops DR is pretty compelling especially when it is hinted that the BMPC 4k is not quite 12 but more like 11.5 stops DR.
If the GH4 rolling shutter improves which I'm sure it will over the GH3 and at $2000 plus cost of external recorder, BMPC 4k will need some serious price cut to consider.

innerspark
02-08-2014, 05:14 AM
A. Reid and other outlets are saying that the quad core CPU of the new GH4 is 50% and will have a dramatic improvement on the rolling shutter. This camera is big news.

Taikonaut
02-08-2014, 06:06 AM
A. Reid and other outlets are saying that the quad core CPU of the new GH4 is 50% and will have a dramatic improvement on the rolling shutter. This camera is big news.

If that is true, with flexiibility of the M43 adapter and metabone SB I would not miss the BMPC 4k apart from RAW

KINOKS
02-08-2014, 07:59 AM
The in camera codecs are so good and convenient without an external base for it. Gearing the GH4 up for external 4K for 10bit 4:2:2? No thanks, I'm all good. It's enough with power and monitors on the BMCC, haha.

I see it like this: you need an external monitor. Right? Be it an EVF or something a bit bigger. Today there are a couple of choices where good monitors are also recorders. Do you use an external monitor when shooting with bmcc?

flean
02-08-2014, 01:43 PM
...It's all good, and the GH4 is a wake-up call to DSLR makers in terms of 4K, the Canon 1DC was ridiculously overpriced.
NAB will be very exciting - I wonder if BMD will announce a 4K version of their hyperdeck shuttle?

I agree! Here's a post I found about a rumored new dslr with global shutter capable of 2.5k video from canon
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/01/canon-to-offer-global-shutter-for-2-5k-video-on-an-upcoming-dslr-cr1/

Kholi
02-08-2014, 02:11 PM
A. Reid and other outlets are saying that the quad core CPU of the new GH4 is 50% and will have a dramatic improvement on the rolling shutter. This camera is big news.

I'd like to add that it's a great improvement and definitely welcomed.

Though, it likely will not be a substitute for an actual global shutter (F55, B4K), or a mechanical shutter (F65 or Alexa XT Studio). Waving the camera around, handheld, etc... that's one thing, but the actual motion even in a still shot -- as subtle as it can be, changes with a mechanical or global shutter.

It may be one of those things that a lot of people, even filmmakers, cannot perceive so it wouldn't matter, on the other hand I know a lot of people that can see it.

Mileage may vary, it really has become a very key point for me, right up there with Dynamic Range believe it or not, in camera choice.

I do think that it will help the GH4, as the decreased rolling shutter in the Pocket Camera certainly makes for great motion rendition for the most part.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-08-2014, 02:14 PM
12 stops DR is pretty compelling especially when it is hinted that the BMPC 4k is not quite 12 but more like 11.5 stops DR.
If the GH4 rolling shutter improves which I'm sure it will over the GH3 and at $2000 plus cost of external recorder, BMPC 4k will need some serious price cut to consider.

Apologies for my double post, but since you're double-posting, too:

The GH4 a serious challenger to BMD? Not really.

The GH4 isn't shipping yet, and given Panasonic's previous sporadic shipping record, it might not be readily available for months in various parts of the world.

The GH4 body-only is primarily aimed at a different market than BMD's currently shipping cameras. There's some overlap, but not enough to pose competitive difficulties for BMD. Even if the GH4 sells in large quantities (which it might, especially compared to BMD cam sales) I don't think it'll make much difference to BMD cam sales or profitability. It's a big world; there's room for both.

The GH4 body-only will probably be relatively inexpensive. Because there's no 1 perfect camera suitable for every task, many people will buy it plus one or more other cameras.

The GH4's rolling shutter might be faster than the GH3 (remains to be seen), but it's still not a global shutter. We don't know if the GH4 includes RS flash-band suppression processing, which a global shutter cam doesn't need. A global shutter cam won't have any RS artifacts, none. The same can't be said of the GH4.

I'll bet you your favorite beverage that the BMPC-4K won't ever feature 60fps, and it won't get a price cut until a few months before BMD announces its replacement (which is BMD's normal product pricing pattern).

If the GH4's slow-mo features are important to you (and I agree they sound sweet), buy one! I probably will, too, eventually (after its normal price drop in several months).

But if you want the many good features in the BMPC-4K, then buy that, too.

Just as the GH3 was a good companion to the BMCC, BMPCC and BMPC-4K, the GH4 will be an even better companion.

So many good cams, so little time (and money) ...

Kholi
02-08-2014, 04:41 PM
I didn't realize micro HDMI could support 4K transmission.

If it's possible to output 10-bit 4K from the Micro HDMI, then that does change at least the cost to get "good" 4K from the camera.

I don't doubt that BMD's already soon to announce a 4K Hyperdeck solution, as I believe they're probably one of the few companies with a 4K ProRes license (if it's needed).

BM4EVER
02-09-2014, 01:15 AM
Some are saying $1300-1600 for the body, so it's conceivable that if BMD do announce the 4K hyperdeck you could get both for 2 grand-ish.

http://www.43rumors.com/gh4-gets-already-a-price-in-sweden-and-norway/

Howie Roll
02-09-2014, 06:25 AM
@PJDC did you really say "The GH4 isn't shipping yet, and given Panasonic's previous sporadic shipping record, it might not be readily available for months in various parts of the world." in comparison to a BlackMagic camera? Thank you for reminding me why I read this forum. SMILEY.

Gary Huff
02-09-2014, 11:19 AM
If the GH4's slow-mo features are important to you (and I agree they sound sweet), buy one! I probably will, too, eventually (after its normal price drop in several months).

However, keep in mind that the slo-mo functionality may be all via internal recording. Thus, all slow-motion clips will be locked in to 8-bit 4:2:0.

I had someone ask me for a recommendation on getting a Pocket Camera last week, and I told them to hold off on anything until I could give them a recommendation based on what came out about the GH4 (they currently have a GH3). After the announcement, I told them to get the Pocket Camera instead.

Why?

Two words: internal recording. The use of it was primarily going to be for chroma key shooting. Thus, Pocket Camera wins. Much cheaper and has Pro Res 4:2:2 internally. GH4 only has 4K, which is useless to them really (the company has a foot in both the SD and HD world currently).

They can be up and running (with batteries and media) for nearly the cost of the GH4 body alone.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-09-2014, 02:02 PM
@PJDC did you really say "The GH4 isn't shipping yet, and given Panasonic's previous sporadic shipping record, it might not be readily available for months in various parts of the world." in comparison to a BlackMagic camera? Thank you for reminding me why I read this forum. SMILEY.

Yes, I did. ;-)

My comment was in the context of Taikonaut talking about the GH4 as if it'll be "more" available than the BMPC-4K, when clearly neither are currently available, and both companies have poor records shipping products (at least initially).

(And based on each co's prior record, my guess is GH4 availability will eventually ramp up faster than BMPC-4K availability. No surprise there.)

I really like BMD & Panasonic cameras, but there are many, many things about each company that drives me nuts. Still, they are the companies that make the cams I like, so it is what it is.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-09-2014, 02:06 PM
Some are saying $1300-1600 for the body, so it's conceivable that if BMD do announce the 4K hyperdeck you could get both for 2 grand-ish.

http://www.43rumors.com/gh4-gets-already-a-price-in-sweden-and-norway/

A "4K HdS" will likely have 6G-SDI ports, which I don't think would do 4K with the GH4 "YARGLE" [:)] adapter's quad SDI ports. Who knows ...

misterkofa
02-09-2014, 02:12 PM
Apologies for my double post, but since you're double-posting, too:

The GH4 a serious challenger to BMD? Not really.

Just as the GH3 was a good companion to the BMCC, BMPCC and BMPC-4K, the GH4 will be an even better companion.

So many good cams, so little time (and money) ...

I agree with this 100%.

flean
02-09-2014, 02:29 PM
....two words: Internal recording. The use of it was primarily going to be for chroma key shooting. Thus, pocket camera wins. Much cheaper and has pro res 4:2:2 internally. Gh4 only has 4k, which is useless to them really (the company has a foot in both the sd and hd world currently).

They can be up and running (with batteries and media) for nearly the cost of the gh4 body alone.

i agree!

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-09-2014, 02:31 PM
However, keep in mind that the slo-mo functionality may be all via internal recording. Thus, all slow-motion clips will be locked in to 8-bit 4:2:0.

I had someone ask me for a recommendation on getting a Pocket Camera last week, and I told them to hold off on anything until I could give them a recommendation based on what came out about the GH4 (they currently have a GH3). After the announcement, I told them to get the Pocket Camera instead.

Why?

Two words: internal recording. The use of it was primarily going to be for chroma key shooting. Thus, Pocket Camera wins. Much cheaper and has Pro Res 4:2:2 internally. GH4 only has 4K, which is useless to them really (the company has a foot in both the SD and HD world currently).

They can be up and running (with batteries and media) for nearly the cost of the GH4 body alone.

I agree.

The whole point of BMD cameras (from BMD's point of view) is primarily their unusually high-quality internal recording capability, plus the BMD software either bundled with the cam or offered free for use with the cam. BMD thinks they can make money and be profitable with that strategy. I agree, and i hope they succeed.

Likewise, the whole point of Panasonic GH cams (from Panny's point of view) is primarily their compatibility with Panny TVs of the same vintage. In the case of the GH4, Panny makes more money if they sell both a 4K TV and a cam that works well with their 4K TV. I'm OK with that. I want Panny to be profitable so they continue making great gear.

The above doesn't mean that all the other things these cams can do doesn't matter. It's just my take on each company's priorities and strategy. I'm OK with both approaches. I could be wrong.

flean
02-10-2014, 11:08 AM
And the price of the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K drops to $2995 .....This is War!!! ;-)
http://www.eoshd.com/content/12080/blackmagic-production-camera-4k-price-drops-3k-ships

Herb
02-10-2014, 01:02 PM
I hadn't seen this video until today. It gives you a real sense of the size of the base unit:

https://vimeo.com/86117247

Kholi
02-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Robocop.

Joshua Cadmium
02-10-2014, 02:29 PM
However, keep in mind that the slo-mo functionality may be all via internal recording. Thus, all slow-motion clips will be locked in to 8-bit 4:2:0.

I had someone ask me for a recommendation on getting a Pocket Camera last week, and I told them to hold off on anything until I could give them a recommendation based on what came out about the GH4 (they currently have a GH3). After the announcement, I told them to get the Pocket Camera instead.

Why?

Two words: internal recording. The use of it was primarily going to be for chroma key shooting. Thus, Pocket Camera wins. Much cheaper and has Pro Res 4:2:2 internally. GH4 only has 4K, which is useless to them really (the company has a foot in both the SD and HD world currently).

They can be up and running (with batteries and media) for nearly the cost of the GH4 body alone.

Well, 4:2:0 4k downrezzed to HD is 4:4:4. It remains to be seen how good the compression will be, but 100mbps 4K will most likely prove to be a better image purely resolution-wise (not DR, etc.) than the Pocket when comparing both in HD. And resolution is probably the most important factor in pulling a good key. We'll have to see the final outcome, tho' :)

Also, 100mbps will likely be supported by cheaper cards than the 220mbps of the Pocket. As well, battery life should be much better on the GH4.

dmetz
02-10-2014, 02:52 PM
Well, 4:2:0 4k downrezzed to HD is 4:4:4. .....

???

I didn't think video resolution had anything to do with color space/color compression - 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 or (uncompressed) 4:4:4

Roman
02-10-2014, 02:59 PM
I hadn't seen this video until today. It gives you a real sense of the size of the base unit:

https://vimeo.com/86117247

Oh man, that's almost as big as the BMPC. Will be interesting to see the flood of 4k DSLRS over the next year. Panny was first, and I'll bet you anything Olympus comes out second with a 4k model as well. If I was interested in a hybrid right now, I'd wait out to see how Olympus responds. Their internal OS is freaaaaaaakin amazing. Sony / Olympus and Panasonic will always be first for this kind of thing. Then later on Nikon will join the ranks with Canon holding back for a couple more years.

4saken
02-10-2014, 03:02 PM
And resolution is probably the most important factor in pulling a good key.

you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. for a good key the bit depth is the most important thing. a 1080p 4:2:2 or even better uncompressed raw will give you a much cleaner key than any stuff keyed at 4K 4:2:0 downscaled to 1080p.


Oh man, that's almost as big as the BMPC. Will be interesting to see the flood of 4k DSLRS over the next year. Panny was first, and I'll bet you anything Olympus comes out second with a 4k model as well. If I was interested in a hybrid right now, I'd wait out to see how Olympus responds. Their internal OS is freaaaaaaakin amazing. Sony / Olympus and Panasonic will always be first for this kind of thing. Then later on Nikon will join the ranks with Canon holding back for a couple more years.

olympus is not really known for their video functions in the cameras. even though the IBIS is great, they've always been a few steps behind when it comes to the movie function of their cameras.
I wouldn't count on them coming out with a 4K camera anytime soon, when even their newest flagship still can't shoot 24p.

Joshua Cadmium
02-10-2014, 04:37 PM
you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. for a good key the bit depth is the most important thing. a 1080p 4:2:2 or even better uncompressed raw will give you a much cleaner key than any stuff keyed at 4K 4:2:0 downscaled to 1080p.

I think by bit depth, you mean chroma sub sampling, right? And chroma sub sampling just describes the amount of chroma resolution, if that makes sense (which is what I was referring to.) At 1080p 4:2:2, you're basically only getting 960x1080 color resolution from both the blue and red channels, but for a bayer pattern sensor, that is coming from a debayer of 960x540 photosites for blue and red.

However, when downsampling 4k to HD, each pixel is getting two green, one blue, and one red photo site. At 4:2:0 UHD 4k, luma (which basically equals green) is recorded with 3840x2160 pixels, with blue and red recorded with 1920x1080 pixels coming from 1920x1080 photosites.

4k 4:2:0 downsampled to HD means that each pixel is getting full color information, with the only limitation being the type of compression used, which I previously mentioned. Uncompressed 4k 4:2:0, for instance, would basically give perfect HD color, much better than native 1080p 4:4:4 off a bayer sensor (again, there are only 1/4 red and blue photosites.)

So, 4K 4:2:0 downscaled to 1080p can give a much cleaner key than even native 1080p 4:4:4 raw, depending on the compression of that 4k signal. Plus, compression artifacts will be even less noticeable when downscaled.

Telecinese
02-10-2014, 05:55 PM
To me the GH4 is not really comparable to the BMCC as they're meant for opposite niches.

The BMCC is 'the finest digital cinema image for the price', everything else be damned (crap audio, no stills, need for external batteries and even a baffling lack of basic tools like a histogram and audio meters).

The GH4, as the GH3 before it is meant to be Panasonic's 'finest hybrid camera', hence two things at once:


First, the flagship 'bells and whistles' mirrorless photo camera that aims to be as good for professional stills as larger sensor DSLR systems while being much lighter and more compact since the micro four thirds lenses are tiny compared to 'full frame'. This is a big deal for some nature and journalism-oriented photographers that have to lug around less stuff.

And of course, it's also trying to be the very best video camera in the 'DSLR' form factor (even though it's not technically a DSLR), as in the ultimate refinement of the original Reuters-suggested concept of 'photo camera with a video mode' that gave us the Canon 5d MKII and the whole video DSLR revolution. That, plus the giant dock thing with XLR connectors suggests to me that the real competition for the GH4 is a more ENG and documentary-oriented camera like the Canon C300, not anything with 'cinema' in the name. And with 4k, 1080p 96fps slow-mo, and the expected Panasonic image quality any GH2 user can tell you about I think it's going to do very well in this market at a fraction of the cost of comparable Canons, Sonys, etc.



But for us digital cinema folks? An excellent complementary B camera but no competition for the Blackmagic image, recording format and gradability. It's a super GH2, and that's no bad thing but move along if you're looking for a BMCC-killer.

Telecinese
02-10-2014, 06:59 PM
This EOSHD article seems relevant:

Which 4K camera for the masses? GH4 vs Blackmagic Production Camera (http://www.eoshd.com/content/12057/4k-camera-masses-gh4-vs-blackmagic-production-camera)

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
02-10-2014, 07:11 PM
This EOSHD article seems relevant:

Which 4K camera for the masses? GH4 vs Blackmagic Production Camera (http://www.eoshd.com/content/12057/4k-camera-masses-gh4-vs-blackmagic-production-camera)

The sensor diagram in his article shows incorrect dimensions for BMPC-4K (should be 21.12mm x 11.88mm), and it doesn't make clear that the GH4's full 4K mode is cropped more than its UHD mode.