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Vincent Thomas
08-19-2012, 09:02 AM
Considering the limited field of view of the small BMC sensor, i was wondering how much anamorphic lens will be usefull , and to be more specific, if i should keep my Iscorama 36 and Panasonic 7200?

v*

__________________________________________________ ________
Vincent Thomas
VFX Artist & Supervisor / Photograph & Creative Director
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
http://www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr/

randyman
08-19-2012, 09:58 AM
No, I don't think you'll have any further need for that Iscorama at all. Nada. Zip. Zero. Nosiree, Bob.

In fact, I'd be perfectly happy to relieve you of the continued burden of providing storage space for that useless object. I'll even cover the cost of postage & handling. Whaddya say?

But seriously now... I've got a Kowa 2X (kind of extreme, I know) and I'm very much looking forward to using it with the BMC. There's also (perhaps a fantasy) the possibility that a future firmware upgrade could make the BMC more anamorphic-friendly. For now, unless there's an urgent need to liquidate some gear, I'd thank my lucky stars and hold on to that puppy.

And just as seriously, if you ever decide you need to let it go... drop me a PM, all right? I would do better than just postage... :)

Jason M.
08-19-2012, 11:21 AM
I also have a Kowa 2x that I'm looking forward to playing around with on the BMC. If randyman happens to not want that Iscorama 36 when you decide to part with it, let me know. I'll also be happy to relieve you of such a useless piece of glass for cheap.

itimjim
08-20-2012, 02:16 PM
If you have something that widens your field of view, surely that's a good thing no?

Vincent Thomas
08-20-2012, 02:27 PM
Well yes that's why i got those baby but it's also a little pain to use ... Im wondering how wide i could shot with the 7200 and which lens i could start with the Isco.

Zeiss is also about to release some anamorphic lens, wondering what kind of price range they will fit...



If you have something that widens your field of view, surely that's a good thing no?

mbeck
08-20-2012, 02:55 PM
I really want the 7200 for my BMC so bad!

John Brawley
08-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Well yes that's why i got those baby but it's also a little pain to use ... Im wondering how wide i could shot with the 7200 and which lens i could start with the Isco.

Zeiss is also about to release some anamorphic lens, wondering what kind of price range they will fit...

CRAZY expensive. Like Masterprime expensive.

jb

Vincent Thomas
08-20-2012, 04:20 PM
Question solved excellent :)

for the same prize as one of these lens, i could almost setup a duo rig and merge the 2 pictures in Nuke after :)

Already their new 15mm is on top on my list and 5 to 6k $ for a single lens is my actual extreme limit and im putting a serious option of their CP superspeed which will definitely break by budget .
Now obviously when you see what Rokinon propose for almost 1/10 of the price..my original intention is still there but is seriously challenged...

randyman
08-20-2012, 04:31 PM
Gawd... the thought of Zeiss anamorphics are to die for. But at 20k - 30k a pop... well, this is a watch-and-drool affair for me, unfortunately.

Vincent Thomas
08-20-2012, 05:22 PM
Rent... For myself it's not much a problem to forget about. Despite my love for the format, im first interesting by the emotional aspect of a film and picture. And fortunately is driven by a non 30k lens :)
I expect the isco to work great now on the bmc making the image more organic like it did on the now sold GH2.

robmneilson
08-21-2012, 09:31 PM
I'll be able to throw my Lomo roundfront 75mm on there, but thanks to the Canon mount no dice for my 35 or 50 squarefront BOOOOOOO!

Vidatlantic
08-22-2012, 02:45 PM
Below is a link to our recent blog posting on why we feel anamorphic lenses may be perfect for this camera due to the small sensor size...in a nut shell, they'll widen your field of view and narrow your depth of field. http://vidatlantic.tumblr.com/post/29382687522/small-sensor-fears-blackmagic-camera-with-anamorphic

RaphaelWood
08-23-2012, 04:49 AM
I totally agree that the BMCC is a great camera for Anamorphic lenses. If only there was a cheap 2x Anamorphic that doesn't cost more than 200$ though, i would buy it in a second.

redstan
08-23-2012, 06:17 PM
only sell your iscorama unless you need fast cash.
that lens if it is in good condition is treasure.
it will out resolve any pro level movie camera film or digital.

i think they are worth at least 5000 usd plus.
the single point focus and sharpness and combined with a flat field super low chromatic abberation,ability to shoot at f1.4 are proof enough that the iscorama is the best anamorphic outside of a rental company.

the zeiss lens will be great but rental only even if they did sell my guess is they would be 40-75 thousand usd each.

the iscorama will be superb with the bmc camera. the panasonic 7200 although handy is an inferior lens in many ways just check corner to corner sharpness and usable f/stop.
the iscorama was designed for a 35mm film stills camera.
the panasonic anamorphic a tiny 1/3-inch sensor for dvx100 the panny 7200 is the best of a bad bunch including century and the optex.

Tim Hole
08-23-2012, 08:33 PM
People are crying out for a decent anamorphic adapters. There is a hole in the market. Someone needs to realise this.

REDSTAN what happened? Did you decide not to make more of the adapters? Guess it can't be easy sourcing iscoramas

Jason M.
08-23-2012, 09:45 PM
With you here, Tim. A good, lightweight 1.5x anamorphic adapter would be really magnificent for this camera. Unfortunately, I don't have $1500 and upwards to drop on a Moller or an Isco. But if someone produced a good quality one that didn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd be all over it.

redstan
08-23-2012, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=Tim Hole;16141]People are crying out for a decent anamorphic adapters. There is a hole in the market. Someone needs to realise this.

the iscorama rebuilds was not worth mentioning as they where to expensive unless you where an alexa or red owner.
i have 3 more in pieces but it is futile as even broken faulty iscoramas go for 800 dollars or more and i always needed extra spare parts.

the vintage hypergonar glass rebuilds have nearly bankrupted me just trying to get something decent quality.
if you cannot beat a crap optex or soligor no point in doing it i think.
the baby hypergonar type lens have to be heavily stopped down even the lovely lomo is a joke in the f/stop dept.
the problem is people want a new variable compression iscorama type lens that looks and performs like a zeiss cp for 400- 600 dollars and it cannot be done.
a lens can be made cheap but it will not compete with a cheap crap 1970s proskar ebay lens
even kowa bell howells go for less than 500 dollars that is a complex quality optic.

the problem is the vintage french glass i have has to be recut and polished as some of it contains quite bad wave front errors which generate abberations.
i have a working small prototype lens anamorphic that would be good for the bmc i think.
still playing with mounting and focus options.
it won't be an iscorama killer.
it will not be for skater run and gun dudes but will be easier to focus than kowa,sankor and should have less error than the panasonic.

John Brawley
08-23-2012, 11:42 PM
I don't think people relaise what a couture business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_couture) high end cinema lens making is. They literally are made by hand. By highly skilled craftsman. The issue with cameras costing so little is it creates this idea that all these other ancillary BMCC objects "should" cost less without really taking into account what it takes to make something like these.

Anamorprhic lenses ceratinly fall into the "hand made" department and that just costs.

JB

redstan
08-24-2012, 12:11 AM
very true john..
on the dvx forum 3 years ago i had a heavy chat with a guy that was 100% sure that zeiss was gonna do a cp anamorphic for 900 usd.
i said it was bullshit as i had seen the prototype,i believe the test lens form 5 years ago cost them 100 thousand dollars to make.
they gave it to roger deakins to test which is hilarious as he hates anamorphic and has stated he would walk off a film rather than be forced to shoot scope :rolleyes:
maybe zeiss thought anamorphic optical perfection would change him it does not seem to have worked.

years ago i worked for anamorphic nutters joe dunton and also technovision i remember doing an insurance claim for jdc on a rambo film as sly stallone had fired a cross bow bolt into an anamorphic by mistake the production was charged over 30 thousand pounds and that was in the 1980s.
technovision and jdc used cooke taking lens shiga anamorphic heads.cooke are serious money and shiga hand ground the cylindricals 5 people in the uk then built a housing around these optics taking months to align a make the best they could be.

cheap anamorphics can be done easy but you have to be a fan of astigmatism,coma,longitudinal and transversal chromatic aberrations.
having said that lot's of people think the optex,century lens are good quality so what do i know.

Mark Nicholson
08-24-2012, 12:27 AM
I want redstan's converted Iscoramas!

Rambo crossbowing an anamorphic lens is incredible. I wish I could see that footage.

John Brawley
08-24-2012, 12:39 AM
very true john..
on the dvx forum 3 years ago i had a heavy chat with a guy that was 100% sure that zeiss was gonna do a cp anamorphic for 900 usd.
i said it was bullshit as i had seen the prototype,i believe the test lens form 5 years ago cost them 100 thousand dollars to make.
they gave it to roger deakins to test which is hilarious as he hates anamorphic and has stated he would walk off a film rather than be forced to shoot scope :rolleyes:
maybe zeiss thought anamorphic optical perfection would change him it does not seem to have worked.



I really wish someone other than Hawk would do some 1.3X anamorphics.

I just used them on a feature with an Alexa, 100 Bloody Acres. They are good, but INSANELY expensive. We had to import them from Vantage Germany (who make them). Importing them basically doubled the cost of the rental.

They don't sell their lenses. Like Panavision they are rental only.

I'm hoping Zeiss will do 1.3x as well as 2X but I won't hold my breath...

jb

Vidatlantic
08-24-2012, 01:13 AM
Wondering if the new Arri-Zeiss anamorphic lenses won't have that anamorphic-look, as they're claiming them to be "flat" and have "no barrel distortion".
https://vimeo.com/43608875 at :50 Seconds in.

I was in Korea last month speaking and showing anamorphics to a few groups of filmmakers and I spoke with one of the Japan/Korea Arri reps. He also said that they've fixed some of the "old flaws", but I'm not sure what he meant exactly as I didnt have a translater to better interpret at that moment.

Personally, I've never had much love for 1.3x lenses...theyre definitely more friendly on a 16:9 sensor, but in the end, the look didnt merit the extra hassle and the images still felt spherical...but then again I've never had the opp to use a true focusing 1.3x lens, only the LA72000 and its cheaper non-focusing relatives. We do have a few 1.5x iscorama's and Kowa's in our collection and we cant wait to get them in front of the BMCC!

Vidatlantic
08-24-2012, 01:21 AM
also, when they say the new Zeiss anamorphics will be flat with no distortion or barrel distortion, the first thing that came to mind were these old Dutch 1.5x anamorphic lenses that didnt utilize curved or concaved optics, but instead had angled glass. http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-DELFT-VISTASCOPE-8MM-ANAMORPHIC-PRISM-LENS-vintage-camera-delrama-/200809199904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec1293920#ht_500wt_1363

John Brawley
08-24-2012, 03:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/sxG9m.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qe3Jc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/L0VsA.jpg

These are all from "100 Bloody Acres" and shot Alexa ProRes 444 with Hawk 1.3X anamorphics. I think they still look "very" anamorphic (note the out of focus highlights)


http://i.imgur.com/M4jRF.jpg (http://imgur.com/M4jRF)

And this is with the LA7200 on an Si2K...also 1.3X in effect.


I LOVE anamorphic.

jb

Mark Nicholson
08-24-2012, 04:11 AM
The Bolex 8/19/1.5x is actually 1.3x from 0.5m to 2m.

Here is 18Mp with the Bolex and the Olympus 50 1.4. I think it will still work well in 10 years when BMC releases the 8k version of this camera!
http://eyepatchfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/olyanamorphot.jpg

I know I've said it elsewhere but major props for actually shooting a film with the LA7200 on the Si2k. Can't wait to try it on the BMC and test its usable range.

redstan
08-24-2012, 08:14 AM
those bolex mollers are pretty amazing but they kind of should be bolex was a simply superb engineering company and had the kern switar lens connection.
anyone that has used the kern macro switar 26mm 1.1 or used alpa cameras with kern lens understand how good that optics house was.
in fact leica purchased kern asset stripped it and closed it down maybe the kern 35mm optics division where just to good.
moller would really have had to up the game to compete against isco and chretiens company benoist berthiot s.to.p.
and also make something so good that kern would not enter the anamorphic area
moller did an amazing job with the bolex 1.5 using state of the art high index glass and and double element design.
completely over the top quality for most standard regular 8mm cine shooters.
what companies today would over spec over build in unnecessary optical quality that is what moller did.
your image is proof enough mark..that bolex was designed for a 1950s 8mm camera pretty amazing.
the figure of 500 dollars is mentioned so much for a new iscorama type lens.
come on guys i would pay 500 dollars for a lens why ain't it being made they say
maybe because it is financial suicide.
the moller and iscorama are a mount everest that will not be conquered easily design wise.
now the century and optex are an easier matter : )

redstan
08-24-2012, 08:27 AM
john those hawk shots look really lovely i am sure it was worth it for the error free look and ease of use.
how did you find the 7200 did it cut well hold up when viewed on a big screen?
it seems to me with the s12k and the 7200 you would get less cinematic results because of wider field,greater apparent but not true depth of field and less focus separation between actor and background.


the hawk shot the framing of the girl in the field is perfect : )

Vidatlantic
08-24-2012, 09:06 AM
Nice images. Yeah, curious here too, how the LA7200 held up? Did the shots suffer any of the Chromatic Aberration or softening on the edges of the image? I've seen both good and bad with those. Mark N. here convinced us that it was worth keeping around, so we still keep her handy.

Also, ever use Hawk 2x lenses? 2x lenses certainly scream out to the average viewer that something different was used.

RaphaelWood
08-24-2012, 04:14 PM
I have a question JB, from your experience dealing with BlackMagic staff do you think it's likely, or even possible for that matter, that we will have a 4:3 aspect ratio mode? Even if cropped?
It would be great to shoot 4:3 with a 2x Anamorphic in my BlackMagic Cinema Camera.

randyman
08-24-2012, 06:14 PM
It would be great to shoot 4:3 with a 2x Anamorphic in my BlackMagic Cinema Camera.

That is truly The Dream for me. +1!

John Brawley
08-24-2012, 08:42 PM
john those hawk shots look really lovely i am sure it was worth it for the error free look and ease of use.
how did you find the 7200 did it cut well hold up when viewed on a big screen?
it seems to me with the s12k and the 7200 you would get less cinematic results because of wider field,greater apparent but not true depth of field and less focus separation between actor and background.


the hawk shot the framing of the girl in the field is perfect : )


I've shot two films using the Si2k and the LA7200.

One of them, Celestial avenue was finished to DCP and looked really really awesome on a bigscreen. I was totally astounded that it worked as well as it did because hoinestely, the homebrew rig I had to build to make it work, shouldn't have produced pictures that turned out this well.

I wrote an article about it with actual framegrabs.

http://www.johnbrawley.com/wp-content/uploads/Celestial_Review.pdf

You can also see a trailer here

http://www.johnbrawley.com/watch/shorts/celestial-avenue/

This short looked good enough on screen to win the Rhode Island film festical grand prixe and to get a rare (for a short) local theatric release here in Australia.

The Hawks are very very special lenses. Beautifully made and consistent. Masterprime like really....

jb

Vidatlantic
08-24-2012, 11:38 PM
It would be great to shoot 4:3 with a 2x Anamorphic in my BlackMagic Cinema Camera.

just saw this pic posted on twitter showing the BMC sensor...doesnt look 16:9...maybe the active portion of the imager is 16:9???
http://instagram.com/p/OtlDVzNA0D/

Jason M.
08-25-2012, 12:11 AM
I'm pretty sure the actual sensor is substantially larger (almost square), but the active portion of the sensor is 16:9.

John Brawley
08-25-2012, 01:06 AM
The sensor can do 4x3 anamorphic.

They might do it some time doen the road, but to be honest, anamorphic i such a niche part of shooting video. There are other more important things for the team to be working on. Don't worry, it was one of the first things I asked when I saw the sensor.

If you really want this, go over to the BMD forum and set up a thread asking for it.

kn

RaphaelWood
08-25-2012, 04:33 AM
Awesome! And can it do 4:3 Anamorphic in RAW or only Prores and Avid? Will create a Thread there right away, I really want this. Thank you for the info JB, or should I say KN? ;)

John Brawley
08-25-2012, 04:35 AM
It can't do anamorphic.

They basically don't use that part of the sensor.

But they could do some homework and "turn it on".

Just ask for anamorphic on the BMD forum and maybe you can get them to look at doing it. As I say, i doubt it will be a priority There's other more important things to work on first.

jb (aka kn)

RaphaelWood
08-25-2012, 04:50 AM
I know it can't, it's not what I meant, should have picked a better choice of words.
What I meant is If they do "Turn it On", do you think the BMCC can record 4:3 in RAW or only Prores? Since it's just a Crop I'm guessing RAW is possible right?
I'm creating the Thread now, thanks again for all your work and info so far JB.

David
08-25-2012, 04:51 AM
I've shot two films using the Si2k and the LA7200.

One of them, Celestial avenue was finished to DCP and looked really really awesome on a bigscreen. I was totally astounded that it worked as well as it did because hoinestely, the homebrew rig I had to build to make it work, shouldn't have produced pictures that turned out this well.

I wrote an article about it with actual framegrabs.

http://www.johnbrawley.com/wp-content/uploads/Celestial_Review.pdf

You can also see a trailer here

http://www.johnbrawley.com/watch/shorts/celestial-avenue/

This short looked good enough on screen to win the Rhode Island film festical grand prixe and to get a rare (for a short) local theatric release here in Australia.

The Hawks are very very special lenses. Beautifully made and consistent. Masterprime like really....

jb

Just out of curiosity because I never have nor do I foresee needing to use or better yet being able to convince a client to pony up for renting high-end anamorphic glass, any comments between Panavision Primos, Master Primes and Hawks?

John Brawley
08-25-2012, 04:53 AM
I know it can't, it's not what I meant, should have picked a better choice of words.
What I meant is If they do "Turn it On", do you think the BMCC can record 4:3 in RAW or only Prores? Since it's just a Crop I'm guessing RAW is possible right?
I'm creating the Thread now, thanks again for all your work and info so far JB.

It wouldn't be a crop.

It would be using MORE of the sensor. 1.78 is cropped from the current sensor.

jb

John Brawley
08-25-2012, 05:03 AM
Just out of curiosity because I never have nor do I foresee needing to use or better yet being able to convince a client to pony up for renting high-end anamorphic glass, any comments between Panavision Primos, Master Primes and Hawks?

OK, so for starters there are no "Master Prime" anamorphic. My comparison to them was more about their optical perfection and the consistent way they are built. The same aperture across the range. The same size roughly. The same front lens diameter (for matteboxes etc). The precision with which they're made.

Primo Anamosphics...well there are actually a few different set's of anamorphic panavision lenses. They have G, E and C series as well as Primo's and Primo CF's in some (close focus)

I've only used the Primos. They are BEASTS. A single prime weighs something like 7KGs. it's huge. Heavy. And beautiful. Completely impractical really.

A lot of DP's like the older 60's era C series, mainly because they are much smaller. I ahven't been able to sue those myself. it's hard to get them out of the US. Even the Primo's I got to use was basically luck because they were coming off the back of a big job and were in the country. I managed to get them for a week.

I like the primo's a lot. They are warm, and not RAZOR sharp, but very lovely. The Hawks are quite differently and don't really flare in the same way. Panvision, like LOMO, use front mounted anamorphic adaptors. Hawks have a central anamorphic element so it's far less prone to anamorphic flare (which I prefer).

Master Primes. Aside form not being anamorphic...;-) They are awesome, but you know, I find them to be too perfect. With a camera like the Alewxa, which also doens't have a lot of personality, they can get kind of bland...you have to do a lot more in the lighting and staging to make it interesting ! They don't really have any personality. They are also very large. HEAVY.

jb

RaphaelWood
08-25-2012, 05:04 AM
It wouldn't be a crop.

It would be using MORE of the sensor. 1.78 is cropped from the current sensor.

jb

That's great Info JB, Thanks!

Also, here is the Thread I created in the BMD Forum in case anyone wants to show their support for the request of a 4:3 shooting mode: http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=240

Kholi
08-27-2012, 10:15 PM
Raphael, I'm gonna pitch in a vote for this. Although right now I don't know of any way to get Anamorphics onto the Magic Cam short of whoever's gonna chop the nose off, today shooting GH2 Anamorphic (testing) for the first time made me realize it'd actually be pretty nice to have the option.

Really like how a 100MM Anamorphic, which typically really isn't long enough on an S35 sensor, is actually JUST under perfect on the GH2. Could stand to have something wider than a 40, probably a 25~35 would do nicely.

Votes in!

Vincent Thomas
09-07-2012, 02:57 PM
Okay guys, time to sale your Lomo set, the new anamorphic Arri master prime are out

http://www.zeiss.de/C1256A770030BCE0/WebViewTopNewsAllE/8902B748EC0347ABC1257A72002B968B?OpenDocument

Oh wait... be sure you have around 35 000 euros for each prime lens before selling your lomo :)

__________________________________________________ ________
Vincent Thomas
VFX Supervisor / Lead Artist / Director & Cinematographer
http://fr.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas

randyman
09-07-2012, 03:13 PM
Oh, dear lord... o_O

Jason M.
09-07-2012, 03:19 PM
My god, those Zeiss Anamorphics look amazing. Can't wait to see them in action.

robmneilson
09-07-2012, 03:26 PM
Awesome, would love to give these a rental. That said, keeping my lomo set for the near future!

Once I get my BMC I'll shoot a couple tests with the two roundfronts I own.