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sybefilm
04-23-2012, 05:14 PM
I have used cineform for years. I wonder if this will be a better solution until adobe updates the 8 bit cinemadng improter.

As staed in another post. Adobe cinemDNG only imports 8bit files.

Has anyone used Cineform to convert to RED or DNG files into cineform raw or cineform 444 codec?

If so.

What is your opinion of the conversion.

Mark got this working.. Here it is from his post below.. I posted up here to save you from going through all of the postings.. Thanks Mark.

I got it working. I left the instructions here along with the download link: http://eyepatchfilms.com/?p=903 if you want to test it out. This is very very basic right now.

Mark hard at work.. He has listed version 2 now. I tired it and it works great.

link is on the fourth page of this post.

Bruce Allen
04-23-2012, 08:43 PM
I love the idea of Cineform - and David Newman was way ahead in doing compressed RAW workflow - before RED, even.

Personally I think it's great for PC users running Premiere because that's where they seem to focus their bug testing.

However, I use both PC and Mac and a lot of the freelancers I work with are Mac only, so its instability on Mac is an issue for me.

Last year I installed the trial onto a 2009 iMac - it had corrupted images and brightness issues.

This year I hoped things had improved, so I put the trial on a new 2011 iMac - this time it crashed After Effects outright when on one set of settings, and produced corrupted frames on the other settings. I talked to tech support and they were kinda interested in debugging it. I sent them a bunch of screenshots detailing everything and they said "that's nice, send a video too please". At that point I just said "look, I sent good screenshots. You guys need to get a current iMac and just make the darn thing work yourselves. If I go with this solution, I'm going to have 10 freelancers, all on different Macs, also with Cineform installed. What if they all hit different weird bugs? Some more stability is needed."

Maybe with the GoPro acquisition they are putting more money into bug testing? Heck, likely GoPro is planning on having a Cineform RAW-recording camera.

So I'm going to give it another go halfway through 2012 and will report back again :)

Until then, I personally just use DNxHD, ProRes and OpenEXR files.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Frank Glencairn
04-24-2012, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I tried it, but there is no GUI for that and I suck at command line - so no dice.

Frank

Mark Nicholson
04-25-2012, 07:29 AM
I think Cineform RAW is for me. The DPX2CF utility is amazingly fast on my system. I'm doing testing with Ikonoskop DNG files from this sample: http://www.ikonoskop.com/files/143/A-Cam_dll_Night_CinemaDNG.zip

The file is 160MB in CinemaDNG and 63MB in Cineform RAW. The conversion is fantastically quick and you can dump the files directly into an NLE. I setup a basic grade for the footage in MB:Looks and could still edit in realtime.

I'm interested in how it handles Blackmagic DNG files and whether you can easily pass metadata to Cineform RAW.

Also it's really cool that you can load up Firstlight and manipulate the footage similar to Redcode and the metadata changes in realtime.

Frank Glencairn
04-25-2012, 08:47 AM
Can you please tell me, what exactly I have to type in that command line tool?
A little tutorial would deserve to be a sticky IMHO, since a lot of guys like me, donīt know how to deal with that.

Thanks, Frank

Liszön!
04-25-2012, 10:08 AM
As I know, you dont have to use the command line to convert footages to Cineform.
HDLink is perfect for the job, included with Cineform.

Frank Glencairn
04-25-2012, 10:45 AM
I tried it, HDLink doesn't load the DNG files (at least not those from the A-Cam).

Liszön!
04-25-2012, 10:57 AM
Hm, yes I see.
Maybe Resolve can do the job.

Edit:

But only for MAC or Linux:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/2588311/davinci_resolve_8.2_supported_codec_list.pdf

PC users cant use Cineform + Resolve :(

Edit no2:

"CineForm makes a tool for Windows that converts CinemaDNG files into CineForm RAW" - http://www.ikonoskop.com/dii/cinemadng/

Currectly im looking for the tool in the Cineform website.

Edit no3:

Aha, so thats the command line tool.. great. Stoneage.

Liszön!
04-25-2012, 12:07 PM
The file is 160MB in CinemaDNG and 63MB in Cineform RAW.

How can you produce 63MB filesize from that zipped dng footage? Mine only goes up to 35MB, so I guess its not raw.
My command line is pretty short: "dpx2cf *.dng c:\dng\new.avi -f23.976 -q5"
(Because the dpx2cf.exe is in the same folder as the dng's.)

If i set "-q6" (not mentioned in the official CF2DPX manual) the filesize is 54MB.

Any other commands to add?

mintcheerios
04-25-2012, 12:34 PM
Can you please tell me, what exactly I have to type in that command line tool?
A little tutorial would deserve to be a sticky IMHO, since a lot of guys like me, donīt know how to deal with that.

Thanks, Frank

I'm about to go to bed now, but I've managed to convert the Ikonoskop sample into Cineform RAW and load it into Premiere Pro 5.5. It's too bad it's command-line only, but they've hinted at making a GUI with it in the future. I can't make a full tutorial right now, but here are some steps to convert the files using the dpx2cf utility.

1. Download the Ikonoskop sample file here (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=c375bca59e4ad22d187b979d43cfc09a&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmcuser.com%2Fnewreply.php%3F do%3Dnewreply%26p%3D772&v=1&libid=1335367618813&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ikonoskop.com%2Ffiles%2F143%2 FA-Cam_dll_Night_CinemaDNG.zip&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmcuser.com%2Flogin.php%3Fdo% 3Dlogin&title=Cineform%20Conversion%20anyone%20use%3F%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ikonoskop.com%2Ffiles%2F143%2 FA..._CinemaDNG.zip&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13353678877651).
2. Download the GoPro Cineform Studio Premium trial and install it.
3. Unzip the Ikonoskop sample into a folder of your choice. You'll notice that the files are a bunch of DNGs inside.
4. Go to the Cineform\Tools folder and look for dpx2cf.exe. Copy that file into the folder where the DNGs are.
5. Open the command prompt (type in command in the start menu search and you'll see it)
6. If you unzipped your DNG files someplace other than the C drive, type in the drive letter of where you put them and then colon, then hit enter. If you unzipped the files in the E drive for example, you would type "e:" then hit enter (without the quotes). You'll see that the drive letter has changed on the next line.
6. Now type "cd <location of your DNG files>". For example, if I unzipped the dng files to E:\videos\dngtest, I would type "cd e:\videos\dngtest" without the quotes. After you type that, hit enter. You'll notice that the next line will show that you are in that directory now.
9. Let's keep assuming you unzipped your files in the e:\videos\dngtest folder. You would now type "dpx2cf *.dng e:\videos\dngtest\testfile.avi -f23.976 -q5" and then hit enter (remember, type without the quotes). You'll see the command prompt go through all the DNG files. Now if you look in the e:\videos\dngtest folder in Windows, you'll notice that testfile.avi has appeared. You can now play this with Media Player Classic or whatever video player you use. Load it in your NLE and mess around with it. You'll notice that Cineform RAW runs just as good if not better than the other intermediate codecs. Also, you can substitute -q5 with -q1 all the way to -q6. According to the Cineform site, -q4 is Filmscan 1, -q5 is Overkill, and -q6 is not listed but seems to make a bigger file than -q5. There are many other things you can do with switches that change the file such as framerate, color space, etc. These are extra commands you type in after -q5 that will alter things like color space, aspect ratio, etc. You can see the switch commands here (http://techblog.cineform.com/?tag=dpx2cf).

Cineform RAW converts fast, has a file size around REDCODE levels (way smaller than RAW DNG files), and is directly editable on your NLE. I like Cineform RAW so much, I'm considering converting my uncompressed DNG files and then deleting the DNGs in my workflow to save disk space. That way, I don't have to lose resolution with ProRes/DNxHD, and I'll still have edit-friendly RAW files that are a fraction the size of the uncompressed RAW without proxies.

As for Davinci Resolve in Windows accepting Cineform files, I've actually read reports that say it's working in the latest beta, but is currently unlisted in the codec sheet. I don't have Resolve to test it, but it'd nice if someone could confirm. If it does work, I think I'll be buying Cineform Premium for sure. It used to be like $1500 bucks, but went down to $300 after GoPro acquired them (videoguys has it for $250). This is an excellent solution for Windows users who want compressed edit-friendly RAW files. Now if they could just make a GUI version. I know David Newman posts on the big forums, so hopefully he's reading this.

Mark Nicholson
04-25-2012, 04:51 PM
How can you produce 63MB filesize from that zipped dng footage? Mine only goes up to 35MB, so I guess its not raw.
My command line is pretty short: "dpx2cf *.dng c:\dng\new.avi -f23.976 -q5"
(Because the dpx2cf.exe is in the same folder as the dng's.)

If i set "-q6" (not mentioned in the official CF2DPX manual) the filesize is 54MB.

Any other commands to add?

I did this. I put DPX2CF in my DNG folder

DPX2CF *.DNG test.avi -q6 -f 23.976
The resulting Cineform RAW file takes about 2 seconds to create, contains both 1 second clips and is 63MB in size

As for ease of use, maybe I'll start playing around with making a batch file gui that makes it simpler to use. Lots of easy to use programs that do that.

vealti
04-25-2012, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the step by step mintcheerios. I've been using Cineform (though never the raw codec) for years and have been wondering if I could keep it with this camera. I'm going to be trying this next week.

Frank Glencairn
04-25-2012, 06:25 PM
I

As for ease of use, maybe I'll start playing around with making a batch file gui that makes it simpler to use. Lots of easy to use programs that do that.

Oh yes please, that would be a great relieve.

Thanks, Frank

Mark Nicholson
04-25-2012, 09:12 PM
30
It will look like this and allow you to select the directory. I wish I had some raw DNG files from the Blackmagic cam to test. I wonder if they are going to be wrapped in a wrapper, or just individual files like the ikonoskop

Kavadni
04-25-2012, 10:16 PM
30
It will look like this and allow you to select the directory. I wish I had some raw DNG files from the Blackmagic cam to test. I wonder if they are going to be wrapped in a wrapper, or just individual files like the ikonoskop

Looking good Mark :)

Mark Nicholson
04-26-2012, 01:42 AM
I got it working. I left the instructions here along with the download link: http://eyepatchfilms.com/?p=903 if you want to test it out. This is very very basic right now.

Frank Glencairn
04-26-2012, 02:56 AM
Mark you are a wizard - thank you so much.

Frank

Liszön!
04-26-2012, 06:05 AM
Great tool! (Not compatible with Win XP, Win 7 only btw.)

Thank you!

Craig
04-26-2012, 06:43 AM
Fantastic...I stopped using cineform when adobe's Mercury playback engine was released. I bought the upgrade to studio premium for $49. looks like money well spent.
This should be a sticky.

Liszön!
04-26-2012, 07:30 AM
DPX2CF supports a lot other RAW still formats by the way, like TIF, CR2 etc:

http://cineform.blogspot.com/2010/11/camera-raw-to-cineform-raw.html

You just have to replace the file extension in the script.

dwaisman
04-26-2012, 09:24 AM
As for Davinci Resolve in Windows accepting Cineform files, I've actually read reports that say it's working in the latest beta, but is currently unlisted in the codec sheet. I don't have Resolve to test it, but it'd nice if someone could confirm. If it does work, I think I'll be buying Cineform Premium for sure. It used to be like $1500 bucks, but went down to $300 after GoPro acquired them (videoguys has it for $250). This is an excellent solution for Windows users who want compressed edit-friendly RAW files. Now if they could just make a GUI version. I know David Newman posts on the big forums, so hopefully he's reading this.

+1 to that. I own NeoScene and I'd consider getting Premium Studio only for Cineform RAW.

Andrew_HD
04-26-2012, 10:20 AM
I think there is one issue left to sort out- CF tool is for DNG image sequence. BM camera outputs DNG format in MXF wrapper (this what I read somewhere on this forum), so it won't work straight away.
I think I've seen David's saying on twitter that there will be converter for BM camera soon.

CF command line tools are great- very fast and work for many formats- I doubt that there is anything faster out there.

Andrew_HD
04-26-2012, 10:25 AM
30
It will look like this and allow you to select the directory. I wish I had some raw DNG files from the Blackmagic cam to test. I wonder if they are going to be wrapped in a wrapper, or just individual files like the ikonoskop

I think it would be nice to have ability to choose fps.

John Brawley
04-26-2012, 10:36 AM
30
It will look like this and allow you to select the directory. I wish I had some raw DNG files from the Blackmagic cam to test. I wonder if they are going to be wrapped in a wrapper, or just individual files like the ikonoskop

Right now they show up as individual numbered frames in a folder for each record event.

jb

Andrew_HD
04-26-2012, 10:55 AM
Ok- so CF tool will work :)

Andrew_HD
04-26-2012, 06:08 PM
As for Davinci Resolve in Windows accepting Cineform files, I've actually read reports that say it's working in the latest beta, but is currently unlisted in the codec sheet. I don't have Resolve to test it, but it'd nice if someone could confirm.

Cineform files have been working in Resolve from the first Windows beta version (if I remember well). I tried it and had no issues. Resolve sees 10bit no problem- never tried 12bit CF file thought, but it should also work fine. BM Resolve codec support PDF is bit outdated.

Mark Nicholson
04-26-2012, 06:46 PM
Glad to hear it will actually already work with the native files from the BMC cam. I'll add the framerate option and make sure it can't overwrite output files now.

Andrew_HD
04-26-2012, 07:31 PM
I did this. I put DPX2CF in my DNG folder

DPX2CF *.DNG test.avi -q6 -f 23.976
The resulting Cineform RAW file takes about 2 seconds to create, contains both 1 second clips and is 63MB in size

As for ease of use, maybe I'll start playing around with making a batch file gui that makes it simpler to use. Lots of easy to use programs that do that.

q6 is a special mode- higher quality than FilmScan2 (q5), but for most source files may be bit overkill. It's designed to use for clean/relatively easy to encode footage- it forces CF encoder not to go to low with bitrate for these kind of sources. For typical source with bit of noise and detailed q5 should be good enough.

Macalincag
04-26-2012, 08:28 PM
Something strange:

With Cineform Studio Professional installed, I am able to import one (of the 50) ikonoskop DNGs in Adobe Media Encoder and they all show up as a sequence in the source preview monitor. However, it imports as being a "1fps source @ 2048x1092", and when scrubbing through the source monitor I see each frame play for 30 frames and so on for each of the 50 frames. (So it's like 50 seconds instead of naturally being 2 seconds @ 25fps)

I am able to export it at the same resolution (2048x1092) w/ the Cineform HD/2k/4k Codec, in 422, 444, or 4444, and all the encoding qualities (from Low Quality to Film Scan 2). As you would have guessed it exported to a 50 second clip after encoding to 25fps, instead of a 2 second clip.

So it works... but not really. Anyone have any suggestions allowing Adobe Media Encoder to just let each frame be a frame, instead of automatically duplicating it self for an X amount of frames?

David_Newman
04-26-2012, 11:52 PM
Hi guys,

I didn't expect so much discussion already on transcoding to CineForm RAW, thank you for such an encouraging thread. Yes we often add new features first as a shell tool, as these are typically used by high-end facillities which prefer scriptable shells over fancy GUIs. But now that BMD will take CinemaDNG mainstream, will we offer a nice full GUI experience for these files within our CineForm Studio Premium tool.

I'm not sure that I'm on any BMD beta list for this camera (hint, hint, swap for some GoPro's? ;) ) so as soon as images sequences (with audio) are available, someone please email me so we can test.

David Newman
Sr. Dir. Software Engineering, GoPro.

Mark Nicholson
04-27-2012, 01:19 AM
Glad that there will be dedicated cineform support for this camera. If anyone is interested, I added framerate options, and it sets the filename by date and time so it won't overwrite any previous file you've created.

DNGtoCineform_V002 (http://eyepatchfilms.com/DNGtoCineform_V002.zip)

Since GoPro is bringing the GUI, I probably won't do anything more with this :)

David_Newman
04-27-2012, 02:05 AM
Thank you bridging the gap, there are a few Ikonoskop users who would benefit and maybe a few BMD camera users if we don't time our support right.

Tzedekh
04-27-2012, 03:36 PM
Any chance that the BMC will output CineForm RAW directly (that is, eliminating the need to transcode from CinemaDNG)? That ability would be a big step in the inexorable transition to 4K.

Andrew_HD
04-27-2012, 04:49 PM
Maybe with next camera and 4K :)
If 10000 people will ask BM for CF RAW recording it may happen with current camera :)

John Brawley
04-27-2012, 07:21 PM
Any chance that the BMC will output CineForm RAW directly (that is, eliminating the need to transcode from CinemaDNG)? That ability would be a big step in the inexorable transition to 4K.

I doubt it.

If BMD is obsessed about one thing, it's having UNCOMPRESSED.

I'd expect a 4K UNCOMPRESSED camera before other forms of compressed workflows....

jb

Andrew_HD
04-27-2012, 07:38 PM
Well- 4K uncompressed is not easy, even with current SSDs, mainly due to space issue.

Grug
04-27-2012, 11:52 PM
Well- 4K uncompressed is not easy, even with current SSDs, mainly due to space issue.

Email Blackmagic and ask them to incorporate it into the camera as a secondary Raw option. They may ignore us or they may incorporate it to appeal to those of us who don't want uncompressed footage, in either case - it never hurts to ask.

Tzedekh
04-28-2012, 01:04 AM
I doubt it.

If BMD is obsessed about one thing, it's having UNCOMPRESSED.

I'd expect a 4K UNCOMPRESSED camera before other forms of compressed workflows....

jb
No one -- not Red, Sony, or Canon -- seems to be pursuing uncompressed 4K. I don't even think BMD is so much about uncompressed as it is about raw workflows and about striking a balance between complexity of encoding and overhead of massive data rates. Currently uncompressed CinemaDNG at 2.5K is at the edge of manageability and, I presume, requires less processing power than CineForm. The current CinemDNG spec supports light, variable-bit-rate lossless compression of up to about 2.5:1, and the CinemaDNG interest group is considering lossy compression (8:1 or greater) and constant bit rates. As BMD already is a CineForm licensee, it could conceivably implement CF in the interim.

Andrew_HD
04-28-2012, 06:32 AM
Yet again- CF does not need massive processing power. It's way easier to put this power than to deal with bandwidth and space issues for RAW (at leas in my opinion). Current chips offer big processing power- just a matter of CF implementation on chip, which I've heard is coming.

mbeck
04-28-2012, 08:40 PM
No one -- not Red, Sony, or Canon -- seems to be pursuing uncompressed 4K. I don't even think BMD is so much about uncompressed as it is about raw workflows and about striking a balance between complexity of encoding and overhead of massive data rates. Currently uncompressed CinemaDNG at 2.5K is at the edge of manageability and, I presume, requires less processing power than CineForm. The current CinemDNG spec supports light, variable-bit-rate lossless compression of up to about 2.5:1, and the CinemaDNG interest group is considering lossy compression (8:1 or greater) and constant bit rates. As BMD already is a CineForm licensee, it could conceivably implement CF in the interim.
I think he was referring to BM as a whole.. It's only recently that they have been including things like Prores. If anyone was to peruse 4k uncompressed it would be BM. That said, I think that if they did a 4k camera they would just implement compression in te cinemaDNG.

JRF
05-22-2012, 06:00 PM
I'm fine with CinemaDNG as an open standard option, problem is, it's not very open. I looked at CinemaDNG workflows a while back and ironically, Iridas had some nice tools for viewing/logging and playing them back. At the time, like today, there just aren't great workflow options. I've been using Cineform for years and it's still my go-to codec for things. I'm believe they'll provide a tool for Mac at some point. It'd be mostly ideal to shoot DNG, convert to CF Raw and ditch the DNG files for space. I'm not opposed to the workflow BMD wants either- Resolve makes it really easy to export proxies compatible with any operating system. My only hang up is that it requires a 15" or larger MBP if I want to do it in the field and well...I like my Air better.

Frank Glencairn
05-23-2012, 03:48 PM
My only hang up is that it requires a 15" or larger MBP if I want to do it in the field and well...I like my Air better.

Why do you guys always bring knifes to gun fights?

I mean, this camera needs a very serious professional workflow.
Why do so many people think they can use something. that college girls use for her homework?

Frank

mhood
05-23-2012, 04:38 PM
^^^LOL! Frank, portability isn't optional for me. My workflow MUST happen on a laptop. Albeit the l8est and gr8est Lenovo but battery powered for sure.

Philip Lipetz
05-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Why do you guys always bring knifes to gun fights?

I mean, this camera needs a very serious professional workflow.
Why do so many people think they can use something. that college girls use for her homework?

Frank

Frank,

At the BM Burbank roadshow they were saying that Resolve 9 worked with an iMac. What do you think the minimum requirements? A Nehlam quad Mac Pro, a hex core Mac Pro, a 12 core Mac Pro, a iMac or a quad core Macbook Pro?

laco
05-24-2012, 03:26 AM
Frank,

At the BM Burbank roadshow they were saying that Resolve 9 worked with an iMac. What do you think the minimum requirements? A Nehlam quad Mac Pro, a hex core Mac Pro, a 12 core Mac Pro, a iMac or a quad core Macbook Pro?

But a minimum requirements for what?
720P compressed video? 1080p compressed video? 1080p uncompressed video? 2K RAW? 4k REDRAW?
Even the mac config guide from BMD says that the Macbook is for "Suitable for SD and SD/HD shot preview".
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3358646/Resolve%20Mac%20Config%20Guide%20Mar%202012.pdf
In my opinion to run Davinci smoothly, you will have to have 3GPUs (one for the GUI monitor, one for SDI/HDMI output, on for CUDA processing). And a fast RAID.

But! There were some people who reported that for they needs, they found the iMac/MacbookPro a good choice.

Philip Lipetz
05-25-2012, 07:56 AM
I do not remember the exact words but the presenter was working with HD files and the implication was that Resolve 9 was more efficient and so would handle that on an iMac. However, the presenter was not a BM employee but a contractor with access to early versions of Resolve 9. Frankly Resolve 9 impressed me more than the camera.

Alex Primehd
05-25-2012, 10:12 PM
Any chance that the BMC will output CineForm RAW directly (that is, eliminating the need to transcode from CinemaDNG)?

+1

Instead of ProRes, and possibly instead of DNG, I'd like to see Cineform RAW (http://cineform.com) in-camera - just like SI2K does natively. Works great there.

Andy Palmer
05-26-2012, 01:33 AM
Cineform would be magic. I don't cut without it. To shoot natively to it would be awesome.

mbeck
05-26-2012, 01:50 AM
I'd also love to see Cineform... but I doubt we will see it in this camera... heres hoping though!

StephenM
05-26-2012, 02:48 AM
But a minimum requirements for what?
720P compressed video? 1080p compressed video? 1080p uncompressed video? 2K RAW? 4k REDRAW?
Even the mac config guide from BMD says that the Macbook is for "Suitable for SD and SD/HD shot preview".
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/media/3358646/Resolve%20Mac%20Config%20Guide%20Mar%202012.pdf
In my opinion to run Davinci smoothly, you will have to have 3GPUs (one for the GUI monitor, one for SDI/HDMI output, on for CUDA processing). And a fast RAID.

But! There were some people who reported that for they needs, they found the iMac/MacbookPro a good choice.

FWIW, I use Resolve 8.2 on a loaded Mac Pro (2 GPU's for grading + 1 for the GUI). Runs anything well including Red. I also use it one a 2009 17" MacBook Pro in the field. Also works just fine, but slower and does not playback in real time. Of course real time playback is not mandatory, especially for one light dailies and proxy generation. I would recommend that you try Resolve Lite on your machine and see if you can live with the performance.

David_Newman
05-26-2012, 11:55 AM
+1

Instead of ProRes, and possibly instead of DNG, I'd like to see Cineform RAW (http://cineform.com) in-camera - just like SI2K does natively. Works great there.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your vote of support.

Tzedekh
05-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Just to be clear, I'd like to see CineForm RAW in addition to (not instead of) CinemaDNG raw, ProRes, and DNxHD. I want more choices, not fewer, no matter how good an individual choice is.

Alex Primehd
05-26-2012, 04:11 PM
@David Newman - you are welcome, and thanks for the fantastic product! I think Cineform really boosted the progress in HD video processing worldwide, because it allowed real-time editing of HD footage at the time when it was not possible otherwise. It also allows a very high quality delivery of content on the playback side. And then CF kept improving, adding RAW and FirstLight etc etc.

Now, I am a self-admitted fanboy of Cineform - and for a good reason, I think. CF won my business the hard way - I tried everything else and was confronted by the reality that nothing approaches Cineform. In fact I wanted to make a point that Cineform is unnecessary - but failed, when other solutions were not nearly as effective as CF. So yes, I paid a lot of money throughout the years for CF licenses and upgrades - because it made sense for me, and still does. And I consider myself a very practical person who does not like wasting money. Cineform is worth it - get a stable release and enjoy the rock-solid video editing/mastering, no matter what source the video came from. Of course native Cineform RAW acquisition is the best - but a rare find.

One of the major factors in our decision to purchase a SI-2K camera, at the time, was the fact that it used Cineform RAW natively. (That, and SI2K's brilliant GUI.)

It is sad that, for whatever reason, most camera makers just don't offer Cineform RAW as native codec.

Hello Sony et al?

I bet Cineform RAW would work great in Sony FS700, especially with its 4K upgrade path - and would likely afford IN-CAMERA recording on SSD!

@Tzedekh - it's a question of practicality. How often does a filmmaker actually *need* DNG workflow? And what does DNG offer that Cineform RAW does not? I gather, BM simply used what they already had in store, and that's how DNG/ProRes became BMCC's codecs of choice, no? If they can offer DNG on top of Cineform RAW, then I guess that's OK as an option, alas right now I wish they paid attention at CF solution - it is proven as a very solid performer on other cameras (SI2K) used in major productions for some years now.

Tzedekh
05-26-2012, 04:31 PM
@Tzedekh - it's a question of practicality. How often does a filmmaker actually *need* DNG workflow? And what does DNG offer that Cineform RAW does not? I gather, BM simply used what they already had in store, and that's how DNG/ProRes became BMCC's codecs of choice, no? If they can offer DNG on top of Cineform RAW, then I guess that's OK as an option, alas right now I wish they paid attention at CF solution - it is proven as a very solid performer on other cameras (SI2K) used in major productions for some years now.
CineForm RAW is great and is probably the best compromise between quality and resource usage, but it's a lossy codec. Since CinemaDNG, ProRes, and DNxHD are already being offered, I don't think it's right for people who've paid their deposits be told that the reason they may have preordered the camera -- uncompressed, lossless raw -- is being withdrawn. No, CF, if implemented, should be in addition to the other options. Each of them has its place.

Alex Primehd
05-26-2012, 04:41 PM
My daughter is a big fan of Cake Boss (she's 11). In one of the episodes she recently watched, Franky ordered live *doves* on the phone - but received *ducks* instead. So yeah, stuff happens. ;)

Just kidding! Seriously speaking, I'm sure BMCC will deliver to you guys what it promised!

And Cineform is an underdog. Although I wish this strange ignorance of the brilliant codec changed years ago. One of the reasons I'm *not* considering ordering BMCC at this time, is that the current codecs don't make sense for my workflow, especially given their choice of the sensor. Just my opinion - I appreciate the fact that yours is different.

Samuel H
05-27-2012, 06:52 AM
where can I read about the backbone of that so-impressive Cineform RAW codec? I've looked for it, but haven't found any white paper or similar. I know it's going to be more complex than cinemaDNG's Huffman coding (which the BMC doesn't even use), but I'd like to see just how much more complex it is.
(because I'm writing a high-performance cinemaDNG encoder, and could consider CF-RAW as an option too)

Macalincag
05-27-2012, 08:56 AM
where can I read about the backbone of that so-impressive Cineform RAW codec?

132

Attachment isn't working for me so:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:egizuxUvs5YJ:www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Files/CineForm_RAW_TechOverview.pdf+cineform+RAW+filetyp e:pdf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiSrdSda21Cjd85AZTiTi8V1VFd9avB7XYzyrK8 k_1eoe9zkysG0PerWXo-9FGZl3-YOGqvo31lhobpjAw1vPuD24L2QMKBevI1NWDFghBxCuCo3mF4Y Lran0ZYMXMS6pmYbGmJ&sig=AHIEtbR1o6a6fUZfaVNMOfXyzJw90Sv4xA

Andrew_HD
05-27-2012, 09:15 AM
where can I read about the backbone of that so-impressive Cineform RAW codec? I've looked for it, but haven't found any white paper or similar. I know it's going to be more complex than cinemaDNG's Huffman coding (which the BMC doesn't even use), but I'd like to see just how much more complex it is.
(because I'm writing a high-performance cinemaDNG encoder, and could consider CF-RAW as an option too)


CF is a proprietary format, not open source, but there are different ways to license it. Talk to David.

David_Newman
05-27-2012, 12:00 PM
Licensing for the GoPro-CineForm SDK is easy, and if your are a SMPTE member you can see all the internal workings of the proposed VC-5 standard (which will have low, volume based licensing also -- similar to AvidDNxHD/VC-3.) We have more flexible licensing terms on CineForm then VC-5. BMD likely didn't implement the lossless compression of DNG as no one does that, so there is very little support, plus it doesn't save you much space, not signicantly enough enhance the workflow.

CineForm RAW codec is fast, I may practically be faster than Huffman alone as you will have less data to store (storage is a bottleneck.) The wavelet transforms are short, integer base and reversible (mathematically lossless -- shifts and ADDs only), we quantize (single multiply,) then huffman encode with zero runs. The magic is how we put those steps together. For software licensees you are best using the SDK, which is supported on Mac, PC and Linux.

Samuel H
05-27-2012, 03:19 PM
Thanks a lot. That looks like something my encoder cound do with big-but-not-huge modifications. I'll look into it if I hit my performance target.

Brad Ferrell
05-27-2012, 05:06 PM
I doubt it.

If BMD is obsessed about one thing, it's having UNCOMPRESSED.

I'd expect a 4K UNCOMPRESSED camera before other forms of compressed workflows....

jb

That would be a nice upgrade from what's been promised. +1

JRF
06-01-2012, 12:08 AM
Why do you guys always bring knifes to gun fights?

I mean, this camera needs a very serious professional workflow.
Why do so many people think they can use something. that college girls use for her homework?

Frank

LOL...oh, I have some very big guns.

pharpsied
06-07-2012, 06:00 PM
Any news on this?

Tzedekh
06-08-2012, 10:53 AM
Any news on this?
I doubt that CineForm RAW will be offered on the BMC out of the gate, and it's still unknown whether it could even handle the processing (i.e., whether the camera has an FPGA). I think BMD has been mum on these details -- and which sensor the BMC uses -- to slow the clamor regarding feature requests. Sadly for them, it hasn't really helped. If this forum is any indication, they're being mercilessly bombarded with such requests.

mbeck
08-22-2012, 09:53 PM
So back to the Cineform... is there a mac workflow for this yet?

jabloomf1230
08-22-2012, 10:53 PM
As for Davinci Resolve in Windows accepting Cineform files, I've actually read reports that say it's working in the latest beta, but is currently unlisted in the codec sheet. I don't have Resolve to test it, but it'd nice if someone could confirm.

I have a licensed version of Go Pro Studio Premium and I have used the CFHD codec for many years (since it was included as a freebie in one of the early versions of Sony Vegas). I haven't checked every possible flavor of CFHD with the Windows Resolve 9 B3, but the beta does not appear to recognize any CFHD AVI file. It does recognize any CFHD MOV files and opens them fine, but then again, Resolve 8 opened CFHD MOV files also. I can also confirm that HDLink does not recognize the DNG format (nor does Premiere CS6, although Resolve 9 does quite nicely with them). Photoshop CS6 will open each DNG frame as a RAW image and Speedgrade CS6 will open the DNG sequence, but I'm not familiar enough with Speedgrade to say anything more about that. Somebody previously posted that the Premiere Pro CS6 DNG importer only works for 8 bit files and hasn't been updated for about a year (It's really the version from CS5.5). Of course, AE CS6 supports DNG sequences natively, but don't expect any speed records to be set, even with a new top of the line dual CPU workstation.

Frank Glencairn
08-23-2012, 02:39 AM
Converted some of John's files to Cineform raw. Grades like a charm in FirstLight and buttersmooth in Premiere.

Really like the debayer algorithms of FirstLight - gives you quite some options.

Frank

PaulDelVecchio
08-23-2012, 03:50 AM
Converted some of John's files to Cineform raw. Grades like a charm in FirstLight and buttersmooth in Premiere.

Really like the debayer algorithms of FirstLight - gives you quite some options.

Frank

Mac or PC? I can't get Firstlight or Remaster on the Mac to recognize the DNG files.

nickjbedford
08-23-2012, 06:49 AM
I doubt that CineForm RAW will be offered on the BMC out of the gate.

Let's just go ahead and say that CineForm RAW is not in the initial release... The specs and codecs have been locked down since its announcement and BMD haven't suggested at all that CineForm RAW is even being considered.

Frank Glencairn
08-23-2012, 09:02 AM
Mac or PC? I can't get Firstlight or Remaster on the Mac to recognize the DNG files.

PC. Mark Nicholson here on te forum wrote a little application that helps to transform the DNG to CineformRaw.

http://eyepatchfilms.com/DNGtoCineform_V002.zip

Transcodes in about realtime, so not much waiting.
It's PC only but you can run Windows on your Mac right?

Frank

PaulDelVecchio
08-23-2012, 11:31 AM
PC. Mark Nicholson here on te forum wrote a little application that helps to transform the DNG to CineformRaw.

http://eyepatchfilms.com/DNGtoCineform_V002.zip

Transcodes in about realtime, so not much waiting.
It's PC only but you can run Windows on your Mac right?

Frank

Yeah I can run Windows on my Mac but the problem is that Cineform doesn't create .MOV files, it'll create .AVI files and I can't edit AVI files on the mac. I tried accessing Cineform within Resolve 9 but these two are the only options I have access to:

1. Quicktime Cineform RGB 16 bits
2. Quicktime Cineform YUV 10 bits

As seen below:

679

Frank Glencairn
08-23-2012, 11:34 AM
Uh- Oh.
I guess I'm not much help here, I dumped my last Apple computer 10 years ago.
So I'm not on the bleeding edge, in regards what works on a Mac anymore.

Sorry, Frank

Brian@202020
08-23-2012, 11:49 AM
http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=780

mbeck
08-23-2012, 12:30 PM
As for Davinci Resolve in Windows accepting Cineform files, I've actually read reports that say it's working in the latest beta, but is currently unlisted in the codec sheet. I don't have Resolve to test it, but it'd nice if someone could confirm. If it does work, I think I'll be buying Cineform Premium for sure. It used to be like $1500 bucks, but went down to $300 after GoPro acquired them (videoguys has it for $250). This is an excellent solution for Windows users who want compressed edit-friendly RAW files. Now if they could just make a GUI version. I know David Newman posts on the big forums, so hopefully he's reading this.
So, I am confused.. I did this, and It looks like it converted it to Cineform HD.. not Cineform RAW. I can load the file up in Resolve, but I don't get any RAW file options.. What am I missing?

PaulDelVecchio
08-23-2012, 01:01 PM
http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=780

Wow, what a pain in the arse. They should just allow you to do this on the Mac with Remaster or Firstlight.

hendrik
08-23-2012, 05:47 PM
Maybe you can use the command line tools for converting on Mac. On Windows, some formats that are not supported by HDLink (Remaster on Mac) are accessible with batch files and command line arguments. Example scripts should be somewhere in installation directory and can be modified to convert for example dng sequences to cineform raw.

Mark Nicholson
08-24-2012, 01:09 AM
Oh I can tell there are quite a few of you out there interested in Cineform. Over 500 people just in past 2 days!

What I would do if I were a DIT on a large project shooting on the BMC, would be to build a little mini ITX machine running Windows or Windows Bart PE (if it would work). This machine would take the SSD in a caddy - convert to cineform and save those files to 2 separate hard drives. An optional step would be to convert to a mac friendly MOV, or even leaving both. Even at Filmscan 2 quality your talking 1/5th the storage space of raw DNG.

Frank Glencairn
08-24-2012, 01:28 AM
So, I am confused.. I did this, and It looks like it converted it to Cineform HD.. not Cineform RAW. I can load the file up in Resolve, but I don't get any RAW file options.. What am I missing?

FirstLight - you access the CineformRaw options including debayering options in FirstLight.

mbeck
08-24-2012, 01:35 AM
FirstLight - you access the CineformRaw options including debayering options in FirstLight.
I loaded it up there too and got no debayer options.

mbeck
08-24-2012, 01:45 AM
Ok, never mind.. its there. So, my next question is, can you get to the RAW settings in any other app? Resolve doesn't seem to support it. What about Adobe? What is the point if you can only grade in FirstLight? It is an ugly program that has some nice features, but honestly I would just as soon grade in lightroom over FirstLight.

Frank Glencairn
08-24-2012, 02:18 AM
It's called FirstLight just because of that - it does manly a first correction like WB and debayering (thou you could also do your whole coloring there).
Than you edit and than you go from there to resolve or whatever you like.

mbeck
08-24-2012, 02:27 AM
Yeah, I get that. But what is the point? I could do the same with Prores and resolve, but I want to grade in RAW.

hendrik
08-24-2012, 02:46 AM
The point of Firstlight is that you don't have to mess with basic corrections in your NLE, instead you do it in Firstlight and all corrections fly with the file wherever you open it. Firstlight grading is metadata based, doesn't alter or re-render the file and renders real-time. You can have multiple correction databases similar to Resolve.

Firstlight grades raw if you have raw cineform file. You can't grade totally raw (before debayer) because raw data isn't color info yet.

Mark Nicholson
08-24-2012, 06:57 AM
Firstlight changes the metadata for the footage. You are not actually "grading" the footage, nothing you do there is permanently changing the footage.

mbeck
08-24-2012, 09:31 AM
I KNOW HOW RAW WORKS!!!!

Sorry... I am just getting a bit frustrated with the communication issues we seem to be having :)

Here is what I want my workflow to be.

Ingest files from SSD.
Convert to Cineform RAW
Edit in Premiere
XML to Resolve (or use camera RAW in Premiere or After effects)
Grade in Resolve (letting Resolve take care of Debayer) Render clips back to premiere.
Render final version (with Graphics, FX, Sound, etc.)


Here is how I see the Cineform RAW workflow as you all have suggested.

Ingest files from SSD.
Convert to Cineform RAW
Do Firstlight Grade
Edit in Premiere
XML to Resolve
Grade in Resolve (not having access to debayer) Render clips back to premiere.
Render final version (with Graphics, FX, Sound, etc.)


Am I wrong?
If I am right then I guess Cineform RAW is not for me.

Frank Glencairn
08-24-2012, 09:57 AM
You are right, but why why dos it mater so much, that you control debayer in Resolve?

mbeck
08-24-2012, 10:18 AM
You are right, but why why dos it mater so much, that you control debayer in Resolve?
Because you don't have access to things like this panel:
695

I want to decide those types of things while I am grading, not before I edit.

Brian@202020
08-24-2012, 10:23 AM
Because you don't have access to things like this panel:
695

I want to decide those types of things while I am grading, not before I edit.

This is the way I'd like to do it as well.

hendrik
08-24-2012, 12:23 PM
You can control WB, tint and exposure while you grade, just you don't have access to them from Resolve GUI but from Firstlight. And you also choose your debayer algorithm in firstlight, in Resolve you can't choose different ones. Basically you have the same options for every clip as in the image you posted but they are accessible from a different place. You can set these settings before edit, after edit, before grade or whenever before final render from Resolve.

Resolve debayer most probably isn't better than Cineform's... maybe someone has tested this?

Frank Glencairn
08-24-2012, 01:25 PM
Oh I can tell there are quite a few of you out there interested in Cineform. Over 500 people just in past 2 days!



Mark, is there a way to do batch conversion?

Right now, for every clip, the BMC makes an extra folder (with lots of blanks in the name) so if I have 100 clips, it means 100 times clicking back and forth, making a new folder for the target every time and so on.
I don't want to be on your nerves and I'm more than grateful for your little app, that works just fine.
But if you are ever bored and have some time on your hands, I think a lot of guys would appreciate the ability to do batch conversion.

Thanks, Frank

Jake Segraves
08-24-2012, 01:44 PM
Hi Guys,

The Windows versions of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium and GoPro CineForm Studio Professional allow you to create either AVI or MOV files. The dpx2cf command line tool included in both of those products should let you choose either one.

The techblog article referenced is rather old. It may be time for us to retire that website. Please know that all the features in FirstLight and HDLink are being ported into the Studio interface. It may take some time, but we will get there eventually.

And for those of you hoping that David is making a GUI version of the CinemaDNG converter, let me just say that i've been playing around with the sample files provided by John Brawley in a beta version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium. Files are converting nicely into CineForm RAW, but David has a few tweaks to make with the codec to make sure they are converting with the correct metadata. While I can't say when any of this will be ready for release, I just wanted to let you all know that this is in the pipe.

Its true that Resolve doesn't seem to provide access to the RAW settings at this point...hopefully that's something BMD can add. Contact me at CineForm Support if you are having any problems with the existing tools.

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a Hero.

Brian@202020
08-24-2012, 02:00 PM
Hi Guys,

The Windows versions of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium and GoPro CineForm Studio Professional allow you to create either AVI or MOV files. The dpx2cf command line tool included in both of those products should let you choose either one.

The techblog article referenced is rather old. It may be time for us to retire that website. Please know that all the features in FirstLight and HDLink are being ported into the Studio interface. It may take some time, but we will get there eventually.

And for those of you hoping that David is making a GUI version of the CinemaDNG converter, let me just say that i've been playing around with the sample files provided by John Browley in a beta version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium. Files are converting nicely into CineForm RAW, but David has a few tweaks to make with the codec to make sure they are converting with the correct metadata. While I can't say when any of this will be ready for release, I just wanted to let you all know that this is in the pipe.

Its true that Resolve doesn't seem to provide access to the RAW settings at this point...hopefully that's something BMD can add. Contact me at CineForm Support if you are having any problems with the existing tools.

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a Hero.

Jake this is good to know, and thank you. I can tell you many of the BMCC users are going to be new to the RAW workflow, and 2 things will happen. First: They will immediately see the benefits of RAW. Second: They will be overwhelmed by the CinemaDNG file sizes. I can't wait for the GUI DNG, it will help everyone.

mbeck
08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Thanks Jake! I will be looking for the release that includes a GUI DNG tool!


You can control WB, tint and exposure while you grade, just you don't have access to them from Resolve GUI but from Firstlight. And you also choose your debayer algorithm in firstlight, in Resolve you can't choose different ones. Basically you have the same options for every clip as in the image you posted but they are accessible from a different place. You can set these settings before edit, after edit, before grade or whenever before final render from Resolve.

Resolve debayer most probably isn't better than Cineform's... maybe someone has tested this?

So, you are saying that I can get to those same options elsewhere? Where would I find those?

Brian@202020
08-24-2012, 02:48 PM
What I'd like to see is a Mac based program with a similar GUI to 5DtoRGB Batch that does the conversion. And then make it scriptable.

jabloomf1230
08-24-2012, 08:25 PM
Here's all the command line switches, some of which are undocumented in the blog post, since they may not be implemented for RAW files:

Usage: DPX2CF path*.dng output.avi|mov [switches]
[options -qX quality(1,2,3,4,4+,5,5+,6), '+' means equal RGB weighting
-fX (e.g. -f23.976)
-nX (maximum number of frames to convert)
-iX in-frame for all continuous frames
-oX out-frame -- continuous from the in-frame number)
-wX output width (scale if needed)
-hX output height (scale if needed)
-pX pixel aspect ratio (default 1.0)
-z zoom so scales crop rather than letterbox
-sT or -sF (sort based on internal (T)imecode or (F)ilename-default)
-cYUV or cRGB (default RGB)]

example: dpx2cf frames*.dng CFHD-RAW.avi -f23.976 -q5+ -w1920 -h1080

This command line will convert all the *.DNG frames in the present path to a Cineform RAW output file CFHD-RAW.avi

Mark Nicholson
08-24-2012, 09:09 PM
Hi Guys,

The Windows versions of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium and GoPro CineForm Studio Professional allow you to create either AVI or MOV files. The dpx2cf command line tool included in both of those products should let you choose either one.

The techblog article referenced is rather old. It may be time for us to retire that website. Please know that all the features in FirstLight and HDLink are being ported into the Studio interface. It may take some time, but we will get there eventually.

And for those of you hoping that David is making a GUI version of the CinemaDNG converter, let me just say that i've been playing around with the sample files provided by John Brawley in a beta version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium. Files are converting nicely into CineForm RAW, but David has a few tweaks to make with the codec to make sure they are converting with the correct metadata. While I can't say when any of this will be ready for release, I just wanted to let you all know that this is in the pipe.

Its true that Resolve doesn't seem to provide access to the RAW settings at this point...hopefully that's something BMD can add. Contact me at CineForm Support if you are having any problems with the existing tools.

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a Hero.

I'm glad Cineform is making a GUI version with tweaks for the BMC. The only option that I want that doesn't seem to work with DPX2CF is -pX so I can set it for anamorphic lenses that are 2x, 1,5x and 1.33x

hendrik
08-25-2012, 04:02 AM
So, you are saying that I can get to those same options elsewhere? Where would I find those?

From Firstlight GUI.

Frank Glencairn
08-25-2012, 07:52 AM
Here's all the command line switches, some of which are undocumented in the blog post, since they may not be implemented for RAW files:

Usage: DPX2CF path*.dng output.avi|mov [switches]
[options -qX quality(1,2,3,4,4+,5,5+,6), '+' means equal RGB weighting
-fX (e.g. -f23.976)
-nX (maximum number of frames to convert)
-iX in-frame for all continuous frames
-oX out-frame -- continuous from the in-frame number)
-wX output width (scale if needed)
-hX output height (scale if needed)
-pX pixel aspect ratio (default 1.0)
-z zoom so scales crop rather than letterbox
-sT or -sF (sort based on internal (T)imecode or (F)ilename-default)
-cYUV or cRGB (default RGB)]

example: dpx2cf frames*.dng CFHD-RAW.avi -f23.976 -q5+ -w1920 -h1080



Jeeeeze, sounds totally Chinese to me. I was alway to stupid for command line, my brain only runs on visuals.
I would soooo love to see a GUI for that conversion, that is able to batch.
Just plug the camera SSD into a computer set target folder and quality and off she goes with all the files on the SSD.
Like the normal Cineform conversion process.
In the moment it's time consuming as hell. I'm glad Mark made that GUI though, I would be lost without it.

Frank

Brad Ferrell
08-25-2012, 08:54 AM
Good luck with Cineform RAW guys. I'm interested to see how it works out for you all.

mbeck
08-25-2012, 10:53 AM
From Firstlight GUI.
LOL.. I know! I thought you were saying that you could still get to these in Resolve...

It just seems kind of pointless. I would rather not have to buy cineform and capture to prores if I am not going to be able to take full advantage of RAW in resolve.

hendrik
08-25-2012, 12:43 PM
If NLE syncing works with Resolve then it doesn't make much difference. The number of mouse clicks you make is almost the same. Setting WB by clicking in Resolve camera settings panel or on Firstlight taskbar tab... Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any advantages in setting it in Resolve except minor convenience improvement.

mbeck
08-25-2012, 01:07 PM
If NLE syncing works with Resolve then it doesn't make much difference. The number of mouse clicks you make is almost the same. Setting WB by clicking in Resolve camera settings panel or on Firstlight taskbar tab... Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any advantages in setting it in Resolve except minor convenience improvement.
Because I want to change it in the middle of my grade.. I don't want to open firstlight and go back and forth all the time.

I want to use the raw images as raw all the time.. not just in firstlight! I was really hoping that cineform RAW would work in much the same way that r3d. Adobe and Resolve both see r3d as raw files.

Frank Glencairn
08-25-2012, 05:53 PM
Not sure if I really understand what you are saying, but here is a workflow.

Usually you first convert your material from DNG to CineformRaw.
Than you import it in Premiere and start editing.
You have Firstlight also open (in background), it automatically syncs with Premiere.
Now let's say, you want to WB a clip. You click on it, and jump to Firstlight.
The clip appears in the main window, you do what you need to do, jump back to Premiere and there is your corrected clip,
automatically updated.
You are working in full raw the whole time, without proxies or any other voodoo.
You can play and edit everything super snappy in realtime, no strings attached.

Sounds convenient and flexible in my book.

Frank Glencairn
08-25-2012, 06:30 PM
Just got word from David Newman:


wide range of support for RAW batch convert with preview in CineForm Studio Premium v1.3 (soon)

Felix
08-25-2012, 07:23 PM
Just to make sure: When I convert RAW cinemaDNGs to cineform RAW the only downside is the 3,5:1 compression. White balance adjustments are as effective as with the original files? The whole exposure range is kept?
ISO/exposure settings? (Iīm not sure if the BMCC adds gain before recording or always records ISO800)

mbeck
08-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Not sure if I really understand what you are saying, but here is a workflow.

Usually you first convert your material from DNG to CineformRaw.
Than you import it in Premiere and start editing.
You have Firstlight also open (in background), it automatically syncs with Premiere.
Now let's say, you want to WB a clip. You click on it, and jump to Firstlight.
The clip appears in the main window, you do what you need to do, jump back to Premiere and there is your corrected clip,
automatically updated.
You are working in full raw the whole time, without proxies or any other voodoo.
You can play and edit everything super snappy in realtime, no strings attached.

Sounds convenient and flexible in my book.


I will do some testing, but it just seems like the host applications don't know that the file is RAW, and doing things like white balance and recovering highlights will have to be done from Firstlight's Awful interface. I would MUCH prefer to make these adjustments in the app that I am working in.

mbeck
08-25-2012, 09:29 PM
I have started playing with FirstLight and Resolve and am not having any luck. Any changes I make in FirstLight are not reflected in Resolve. What am I doing wrong?

hendrik
08-26-2012, 01:46 AM
Even when you scrub the Resolve timeline? If so then that's strange... because Resolve gets it's image through Cineform renderer and any change you make should show up. Does it show corrections in Premiere or when playing clip in video players?

About staying raw all the time. You can't stay raw while correcting because raw image doesn't have color and thus no color correction can be done. Before you can correct anything, image must be debayered to RGB. Whether this RGB image is produced by Cineform renderer and fed to Resolve grading engine or made by Resolve itself and then fed to grading engine doesn't make much difference. You are not grading raw data anyway but an RGB image produced from raw file.

I agree about Firstlight GUI, it is somewhat ugly :) It would be great if Resolve gets native Cineform raw support.

mbeck
08-26-2012, 09:58 AM
Even when you scrub the Resolve timeline? If so then that's strange... because Resolve gets it's image through Cineform renderer and any change you make should show up. Does it show corrections in Premiere or when playing clip in video players?

It works is premiere.. sort of. It is kind of glitchy, but I think it has something to do with cacheing frames.. it eventually rights itself.



About staying raw all the time. You can't stay raw while correcting because raw image doesn't have color and thus no color correction can be done. Before you can correct anything, image must be debayered to RGB. Whether this RGB image is produced by Cineform renderer and fed to Resolve grading engine or made by Resolve itself and then fed to grading engine doesn't make much difference. You are not grading raw data anyway but an RGB image produced from raw file.

Sigh... When you are grading in Resolve, or Adobe Camera RAW or whatever, you are actively changing the debayer settings to get your adjustments. So it does matter that you have RAW. If it didn't matter, you could just set your white point and make sure nothing is clipping and render out a ProRes file.. or heck you could just shoot in ProRes in the first place.

Felix
08-26-2012, 11:54 AM
Just got word from David Newman:

Can you tell them to implement the wav file from the BMCC, too ?
Would save a lot of time.

Frank Glencairn
08-26-2012, 12:46 PM
It
Sigh... When you are grading in Resolve, or Adobe Camera RAW or whatever, you are actively changing the debayer settings to get your adjustments.

No you don't.

Debaiering and grading the RGB result of the Debaiering process are two totally different tasks.
Once Firstlight or Resolve or any other program has the raw debaiered, you make your grading decisions on top of it.
The matrix transformation has nothing to do with the actual grading process.

mbeck
08-26-2012, 01:33 PM
No you don't.

Debaiering and grading the RGB result of the Debaiering process are two totally different tasks.
Once Firstlight or Resolve or any other program has the raw debaiered, you make your grading decisions on top of it.
The matrix transformation has nothing to do with the actual grading process.

You know, after I posted that comment, I started to question my understanding of this process. I need to do my own investigating to see if my understanding is incorrect. I might have to agree with you after I do some tests today.

ianim8
08-27-2012, 12:08 AM
So far best topic to date on the BMCUSER site ;)
Im having a dejavu cause I went thru this a couple times with RCX at reduser site years ago :)

mbeck
08-27-2012, 12:18 AM
So after some preliminary testing I have two questions.

1: Am i mistaking bit depth for RAW? What I mean is that with the RAW file in resolve, I see things in the highlights that are recovered when i bring the gain down. Is that a function of the BMCC's 12 bit vs a ProRes HQ file I render out of Resolve?

2: Why are my cineform files so green?

Felix
08-27-2012, 09:32 AM
Bayer Pattern Image Characteristics
There are some interesting characteristics about images resulting from Bayer sensors. First of all, each color site is not “pure” because the color filters themselves are not pure. The visual result of this is that images observed from a Bayer sensor in an RGB color space exhibit a flat de-saturated look and sometimes contain a green-ish cast

Maybe itīs not debayered correctly

Frank Glencairn
08-27-2012, 12:40 PM
This may help: http://resources.abelcine.com/2012/05/17/raw-log-and-uncompressed-explained/

Felix
08-27-2012, 12:55 PM
But this greenish cast isnīt normal, is it?

Frank Glencairn
08-27-2012, 01:08 PM
Bayern Sensor has twice as much green photosites than red or blue, so yes that's normal (depending on your Debaier algorithm - some take care of that in the default setting).

Felix
08-27-2012, 01:16 PM
Ok, but nevertheless this confuses me. If thatīs what you get when opening a cineform RAW in firstlight...pretty hard make a good looking picture out of it?! All the image info is there, of course, but itīs more work just to make it look neutral.

Or does this only happen with bilinear debayer and CF advanced detail makes it right?
http://techblog.cineform.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/image_thumb7.png

hendrik
08-27-2012, 01:17 PM
I haven't been able to test cineform raw conversion with these dng-s yet but this greenish cast can also be the result of dng file being in XYZ space which when viewed as RGB looks very similar. Maybe it's got to do with Cineform converter not doing XYZ->RGB transform?

Put a DCDM output LUT on original dng-s and see if they look the same as this green sample image.

hendrik
08-27-2012, 04:55 PM
It seems that the source of green tint is the raw file itself. Because Cineform raw converter does not apply any correction to raw data, usual camera calibration matrices are also not applied and because raw sensor values are greater for green then image is also green.

DNG files contain the color matrix for transforming sensor values to linear values, test scene files contain such:
Color matrix 1
1.31 -0.50 0.01
-0.42 1.44 0.05
0.07 0.22 0.73

color matrix 2
1.01 -0.27 -0.08
-0.49 1.34 0.11
-0.06 0.33 0.54

Some more interesting numbers from metadata:
main-width: 2432
main-len: 1366
dng-def-crop-size: 2400 1350
dng-bl-level: 256
dng-wh-level: 60074
dng-as-shot-neutral: 0.63 1.00 0.79
dng-base-exp: 2.40
dng-calib-illum-1: 17
dng-calib-illum-2: 21

File also contains a long linearization (?) table (tag dng-lin-table).

I tried to apply these color matrices but still didn't get a better image. Maybe someone with better understanding of raw conversion could make use of them.

hendrik
08-27-2012, 05:10 PM
Just after posting it I read two posts from CHDK forum (http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=1157.0) and then the light went on! These matrices are meant for calculating XYZ values to sensor values. One needs inverse matrix to calculate from sensor to XYZ. From XYZ to RGB is a piece of cake!

I will post sample images to my blog at vfx-rants.blogspot.com (http://vfx-rants.blogspot.com)

Felix
08-27-2012, 05:41 PM
You guys are unbelievable xD!!

Now with this info:

Inverted matrix for conversion sensor values -> XYZ:
0.863 0.305 -0.033
0.257 0.793 -0.058
-0.16 -0.268 1.39

we can build a LUT in First Light?

mbeck
08-27-2012, 06:06 PM
Awesome, So What exactly do I need to do? (I am not very familiar with FirstLight)

hendrik
08-27-2012, 06:15 PM
I wrote about this topic in my blog and added sample images from all shots. Check them out!

As for LUT in Firstlight... I tried to produce one but it didn't quite work. It would be better to apply this matrix at conversion time but I don't exactly know how to add two transformation matrices together to produce one matrix. I kind of suck at matrix math and some help would go a long way :) Cineform converter accepts color matrix as parameter (although it seems to produce black image when there are some negative values in matrix, maybe a bug?).

Felix
08-27-2012, 06:25 PM
Frank posted that the Cineform guys are working on a batch program to easily convert DNGs. Maybe you could provide them with what you managed to do and they do the rest.

I wonder if sRGB is the right choice. RED always boast how important their colour science is. Redlogfilm, redcolor 1,2,3 etc. With Aobe camera raw and DSLRs you also have profiles to start with (standard, soft, vivid)
With the BMCC itīs a blind flight at the moment. In ACR the profile just says "embedded" and First light doesnīt bother to do anything and shows a green picture...

hendrik
08-27-2012, 06:36 PM
It actually is rather easy to make it yourself or slightly modify one of the scripts that comes with cineform. I think Cineform guys know exactly what needs to be done, I am just a self-taught enthusiast in this field :)

Btw, I added a comparison of different Cineform debayer algorithms to my blog, it is in the end of the post. I'll add this here too, could be of interest.

Samples from shot 1 with different debayer settings left-right, top-bottom:
Bilinear demosaic
Matrix 5x5 adaptive
CF Advanced smooth
CF Advanced detail 1
CF Advanced detail 2
CF Advanced detail 3

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CuCj-pACZkQ/UDv1Lv4of-I/AAAAAAAAALo/pA-RnKmtNvQ/s1600/bmcc_cf-raw_shot01_debayer.png

syberfilm
08-27-2012, 06:46 PM
I have been playing with the new Cinema DNG files provided by Frank and John... This one is john's here.

1. I converted them to Cineform using the batch program created by Mark at Eyepatchfilms. Highest 444 quality. Link here http://eyepatchfilms.com/?tag=cineform

2. White balance in Firstlight. The images come out with a green tint. But easily fixed in five seconds. In first light I changed the Debayer settings to CF advanced 3

3. Pushed the colors to the breaking point in Resolve and Firstlight. I know she is a little orange. But I was going for the Tony Scott Domino look. Cross processed and tweaked.

4. Rendered from original cineform file to H.264 1080p.


Video Clip here
http://youtu.be/MjB-wU_RuS8

mbeck
08-27-2012, 06:50 PM
That utillity does not work on my windows 7 machine.. not sure why.

Felix
08-27-2012, 06:53 PM
Found this on the cineform techblog yesterday. Very useful info!

Note: On Slumdog Millionaire they used a range of CineForm demosaicing filters to get the best sharpness per shoot — better than post sharpening filters they stated.

The also say Advanced Detail 1 is equivalent to the RED debayer. For me AD 2 seems pretty good. AD 1 maybe for closeups and AD 3 for (extreme) long shots or a gritty look.

....and Hendrik: Thanks for all the effort you spent!

syberfilm
08-27-2012, 07:20 PM
Mbeck

If yo uare using the eyepatch film converter..

Your folder can not have any spaces in the title. Shot1 is okay shot 1 is not..

then you have to save the file to a different folder then the one with the files..

You also need the dpx2cf folder in with the eyepatch folder. Then it will convert...

on his site he lists the steps needed.. But the above should get you working..


1. Make a new directory containing DPX2CF.exe – This comes with Cineform Studio Premium and is a command line utility. It needs to be in the same directory as DNGtoCineform.exe

2. Start the program, follow the prompts. It is all very simple with no choices on frame size or frame rate at this time.
3. Do not use this program on any footage that you are not afraid to lose! Right now that would be Ikonoskop users. Also, this program will overwrite its output.avi file everytime without asking first. Another issue with the compiler is that you cannot save your output.avi file to the directory where this program exists.

mbeck
08-27-2012, 07:37 PM
No, I mean the program won't run. It gives me an error when I try to open it. Something about the version of windows. Maybe because I am running 32 bit home edition?

syberfilm
08-27-2012, 07:56 PM
That sucks.. Did you try his new version 2? You can also right click and run as admiistartor.. Cineform is making a version soon so in the next few weeks I think the official cineform converter will be out.

mbeck
08-27-2012, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I think I am going to follow the cineform thing passively until they come out with something aimed at the BMCC and MAC OS.

vealti
08-27-2012, 08:50 PM
I haven't had any luck getting the eyepatch converter to work either (Win 7 64bit). As far as I can tell I'm following all the steps. For those who have it working, are you on Win 7 64 bit?

Mark Nicholson
08-27-2012, 09:02 PM
I built in Windows 7 64-bit. The output.avi file problem was fixed in the second version. It can't overwrite since it writes the output filename based on the current time. I dont have a win 7 32bit system to test it on, so I cant tell you if that's the issue. The biggest bug remaining right now is that "shot 1" needs to be renamed "shot1" without spaces. That goes for any other folder as well.

You need to own cineform studio, or have a working trial. Once the 15 days are up, dpx2cf will no longer work.

syberfilm
08-27-2012, 09:38 PM
I am using windows 7 64 bit. I also have a license for Cienform.. Like the above person said. you need to have an active license of trial for it to work.

vealti
08-27-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm running Win 7 64 bit and own Cineform, so it must be something I'm not doing right. It goes through the motion of doing the batch but no file is created. I'm not at my computer but some of the folders have underscores "shot_1" Maybe that's it. I'll try again tomorrow and see.

ianim8
08-27-2012, 11:28 PM
Running it now on Windows 7 Dell T3500.
I was going to install it in my Mac Pro but I have a freebie from my Hero 2 on there.
syberfilm thanks for the tip about spaces in your directory name.

Frank Glencairn
08-28-2012, 02:56 AM
Works fine on Win7 64bit here.

hendrik
08-28-2012, 08:32 AM
I messed with LUTs a bit and made one that makes raw files look like sample images in my blog. To make it work, input and output curves in Firstlight must be the same and primary corrections must be disabled. For some reason, when primary corrections are enabled, image gets a pink cast even if no changes have been made.

LUT file must be installed with Cineform Lookinstaller (just double-click on .cube file) to show up in Firstlight. For some reason changes made in Firstlight don't show up in Resolve but Premiere etc work fine... I have no idea why.

Download the file here:
http://visarstudio.com/hendrik/bmcc_to_RGB.cube

Jake Segraves
08-28-2012, 01:30 PM
Here's a beta version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium for Windows. With this, you can use the Studio interface to convert CinemaDNG files directly into CineForm RAW. The conversion will automatically adjust to the white balance from the sensor and the color matrix in the CinemaDNG files...this will eliminate the green tint that you were seeing with the dpx2cf tool (doing it non-destructively.)

Usage:
Launch GoPro CineForm Studio and use the 'Step 1 Import' room to select a single file from the image sequence (it will automatically import the rest of the sequence). For simple batch importing a lot of clips, drag in the folder(s) containing all your shots from an explorer window into the import clips bin.

Then in the 'advanced settings', choose your conversion settings.

Quality: Filmscan 1 is sufficient but if you want to get into the shadows a little more, go with Filmscan2
Encoding Curve: Up to you (Protune default is excellent, optimized for 11)…, but again, upping it to 13 stops will let you get more detail from the shadows.
Decoding Curve: Play around and see what you like best...you can always change this setting after the conversion.

Then add the clips to the conversion list and click 'convert all'.

After conversion, proceed to the 'Step 2 Edit' room to do the adjustments you're used to doing in First Light.

Installer:
http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPremium-1.3.0.152-Setup.exe

Keep in mind that this is a beta and your feedback is welcome.

Regarding Resolve not seeing the adjustments you make in FirstLight and Studio, that appears to be a choice made by BlackMagic Design for Resolve. Hopefully they can add implementation in the future.

One more thing...Mac version is in the works!

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a HERO.

Felix
08-28-2012, 02:28 PM
Oh my Jebus!

Now it all comes together! You cineform guys are great! :)

Question. Adjusting Quality must be the the compression ratio, right? So Filmscan 2 is 3,5:1 ?
But what is Encoding curve? It canīt be a gamma curve because the image stays RAW while encoding!? Does this affect the filesizes, too?

Bug report: Import works, looks good. But adjusting Tint and WB is buggy.Scrubbing through tint makes it green, magenta, green, magenta and so on. -30 Tint for example is completely green while the neighboring tints are normal.
And after 30 seconds playing with it, the settings freeze. Changes make no difference, no matter if WB change or adding black bars
In Firstlight, the Input (Encode) curve "Optimize for 13 stops" is not available. So both encode and decode are set to Video.

Jake Segraves
08-28-2012, 02:50 PM
Question. Adjusting Quality must be the the compression ratio, right? So Filmscan 2 is 3,5:1 ?

Approximately. Its based on quality and not a bit-rate. It will vary depending on the complexity of the scene, but it is roughly 3.5:1.



But what is Encoding curve? It canīt be a gamma curve because the image stays RAW while encoding!? Does this affect the filesizes, too?

Its a Log Curve. If you're optimizing for more stops, it allocates more of the available bits to the shadow detail.

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...be a HERO.

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 04:56 PM
If you have stability issues, please check that the display drivers are up to date. WB Temp/Tint have always been too sensitive, technically not a bug as sometimes we need the range they support, the RGB white balance controls always work fine, and the pick white balance is a fast easy option. FirstLight has been deprecated, it is not being enhance like the Studio environment, and once all key FL features are represented in Studio it will be removed. We are focusing our enhancements on the CineForm Studio environment and our course the codec itself.

Felix
08-28-2012, 04:58 PM
Sorry but I donīt understand it completely. 2 Questions

1. I thought Cineform RAW is 12 bit linear. Why is a log curve needed when encoding cinema dngs to CF Raw?
2. Whatīs the correct Encode/Decode Workspace in First Light? SI-LOG looks good but custom lo which is log 100 (Whatever this means) looks good, too.

Edit: Ups, I read step 2 wrong (what Jake wrote). I thought I have to go into First Light after conversion...

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 05:22 PM
1. I thought Cineform RAW is 12 bit linear. Why is a log curve needed when encoding cinema dngs to CF Raw?
2. Whatīs the correct Encode/Decode Workspace in First Light? SI-LOG looks good but custom lo which is log 100 (Whatever this means) looks good, too.

1) It is 12-bit, linear is just one of many curves, happens to be a bad one for any visually lossless compression system. Log curve allow you to control the number of code-words used per usable stop. This old blog post covers why you need a log curve http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/09/10-bit-log-vs-12-bit-linear.html

2) Don't use FirstLight, while it is still an option it is not as good as CineForm Studio in a growing number of ways. SI-Log is Log 90, very similar to Log 100 (pretty much like RedLog.) Protune is our new favorite encoding curve, for a little more shadow detail than SI-Log or Log100.

Brian@202020
08-28-2012, 05:35 PM
...One more thing...Mac version is in the works!

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a HERO.

Do you have an ETA on the Mac version?

ianim8
08-28-2012, 05:53 PM
1) Protune is our new favorite encoding curve, for a little more shadow detail than SI-Log or Log100.
David sorry for the OT but is Protune now installed on all CineForm app options?
Or is it just on the paid versions?
I thought it was going to released for free for all GoPro users.

PaulDelVecchio
08-28-2012, 05:54 PM
Do you have an ETA on the Mac version?

Also, in the meantime, what if we want to edit on a Mac? What's the workflow like for that if we convert the DNG files to CineformRaw? I'm assuming the workflow would be just to convert the files to CineformRaw, but how do we get the .AVI files to .MOV files. I'm also assuming that using Firstlight would be out of the question b/c as for right now this new version is PC only? That's fine, as long as I can get CineformRAW AVIs to be CineformRAW .mov files for editing on a Mac, most likely in Premiere Pro CS6.

Thanks!

Jake Segraves
08-28-2012, 06:02 PM
Also, in the meantime, what if we want to edit on a Mac? What's the workflow like for that if we convert the DNG files to CineformRaw? I'm assuming the workflow would be just to convert the files to CineformRaw, but how do we get the .AVI files to .MOV files. I'm also assuming that using Firstlight would be out of the question b/c as for right now this new version is PC only? That's fine, as long as I can get CineformRAW AVIs to be CineformRAW .mov files for editing on a Mac, most likely in Premiere Pro CS6.

Thanks!

The Windows version of GoPro CineForm Studio can create AVI or MOV files. You can just choose the MOV option in the conversion settings. Then use those files in GoPro CineForm Studio Premium/Professional and Premiere CS6 on the Mac. FirstLight is still included with Studio Premium/Professional, but as David said, we're putting all the new features into the Studio interface.

You will want to install the CineForm Plugins for CS6 as well. These are included in the Mac version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium/Professional.

PaulDelVecchio
08-28-2012, 06:11 PM
...These are included in the Mac version of GoPro CineForm Studio Premium/Professional.

The current Mac version or the upcoming one?

Also, that sounds great. So I'll just use the Cineform beta you posted (and purchase the final version when it comes out) to convert my files on a Windows PC, then transfer them over to the Mac. From here, I'll just use the flat files to edit and color correct in my NLE if need be for a temporary viewing (unless I can use the current Cineform Studio for the Mac and use Firstlight on the files), then when I'm ready to do my final grade, I'll just send the CineformRAW .mov files over to Resolve for grading.

Are there any flaws that you see with this workflow? I can leave out the Firstlight step for now if need be. I just want CineformRAW .mov files that I can take all the way through post production to finishing. The CinemaDNG files that come out of the BMCC are amazing, but they're just way too large to store and backup.

Hopefully this workflow will work. Sounds like a great way to maintain RAW and not lose much quality while keeping file sizes down.

Jake Segraves
08-28-2012, 06:38 PM
The current Mac version or the upcoming one?

THESE beta versions for the Mac will give you the same encode and decode curves that are available in the Windows beta:

http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPremium-1.3.0.137-15.dmg
http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPro-1.3.0.137-15.dmg

You will still need to do the actual conversion using the Windows beta. No ETA regarding when the Mac version will support the conversion step.

Also, here's the GoPro CineForm Studio Professional Windows beta to go along with the Premium version posted earlier:

http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPro-1.3.0.152-Setup.exe

Keep the feedback coming. Thanks!

Jake Segraves
Software Technical Support Manager
CineForm | GoPro...Be a HERO.

Felix
08-28-2012, 07:46 PM
Found something odd:
dngs are 2400 x 1350. Cineform RAWs are stated 2400 x 1348 (not 16:9 anymore) in CF Studio

And another Question: Are the "optimize for XX stops" curves also Protune? In the edit window I can choose Protune as input/output but not "optimize for XX stops". Is Protune correct?

Second Question is more Premiere concerned: What is the optimum Setting for the Premiere preview? I can set Cineform 1080p RGB444, or Cineform 1080p YUV422and many more. is 1080p ok or should I preview with the native resolution. Iīd like to color correct within Premiere and denoise, too.

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 08:20 PM
1348 is a current limitation of the RAW encoder, the image needs to be vertically divisible by for 4.

Protune is optimized around 10.5-11 stops, where most good sources produce useful data -- it will store more than 11 stops, just reserves fewer code words for the extreme dynamic ranges. Protune also looks good on 2.2 gamma displays, so it is a Log curve that I feel is more display friendly.

Resolution for Premiere is up to you. I would run native 2400x1348, and scale to targets on export.

Felix
08-28-2012, 09:47 PM
Thanks a lot! Thatīs first class technical support and I didnīt even buy studio premium, yet (but will of course when I get the BMC :) )

Are those 2400 x 1348 no problem to scale down to 1920 x 1080 because itīs not 16:9 anymore?
I could keep the project 2400 x 1350 with two 1-pixel wide bars on the top and bottom.

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 10:00 PM
Scaling 2400x1348 to 1920x1080 is no technical problem, as you will not be able to detect a difference between 1.775:1 and 1.777:1 aspect ratios. I will look to see in the 1348 vs 1350 is an easy fix, but is not going be a quality issue, just feels right fix.

PaulDelVecchio
08-28-2012, 10:04 PM
A couple of simple questions:

1. The decoding curve... will that update the viewer so we can see what it looks like or do we have to render to see the results? Mine isn't updating. Is it planned in the future to have it update so we can see what it looks like?

2. Does the despeckle/dead pixel fix soften the footage or affect it in any negative way? I assume we should only use this if we notice a dead pixel?

3. What does BLACK LEVEL SUBTRACT do exactly?

I just want to make sure I know EXACTLY what is happening to the footage.

Thanks!

PaulDelVecchio
08-28-2012, 10:14 PM
Wow, conversions are pretty quick and I don't mind so much that you have to convert on Windows. Nothing a little Bootcamp can't fix!

Is the conversion in Cineform GPU accelerated?

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 11:00 PM
1. The decoding curve... will that update the viewer so we can see what it looks like or do we have to render to see the results? Mine isn't updating. Is it planned in the future to have it update so we can see what it looks like?

2. Does the despeckle/dead pixel fix soften the footage or affect it in any negative way? I assume we should only use this if we notice a dead pixel?

3. What does BLACK LEVEL SUBTRACT do exactly?


1. Decode curve curve is metadata only, so you can change it within Studio at any time. It is nice to have a default look (display/decoding curve) for others to appreciate you shooting skills, sometimes a super flat look is misunderstood. If your colorist or editor prefers Video Gamma as a starting point you have that option, although I don't think it is a great encoding curve. If you are computer is more limited, there is a speed advantage to much input and output curves (why I like Protune in and out, good encode curve that still looks good to start color work.)

2. This was added for Tom Lowe doing super long exposes in timelapse for the Timescapes Imax movie. It is a little soften/destructive so only use if you have a lot of stuck pixels (as you get in a 5.7K x 3.8K astro timelapse.)

3. This was added for Ikonoskop Acam-DII, which tends to have a substantly lifted black level. If a compressed file has a high black level, it is a waste of codewords, so this allows its removal.

Features in 2 & 3 are not needed for the BMCC.

David_Newman
08-28-2012, 11:02 PM
Wow, conversions are pretty quick and I don't mind so much that you have to convert on Windows. Nothing a little Bootcamp can't fix!

Is the conversion in Cineform GPU accelerated?

No, the CineForm RAW compression is not GPU accelerated, it is just designed to be that fast (GPUs would slow us down.)

Yuns
08-28-2012, 11:23 PM
David and Jake. As a Cineform Studio Premium owner, I want to thank you guys for how incredibly helpful and responsive you've been to the nascent BMCC user community.

Felix
08-28-2012, 11:29 PM
Iīm finished and itīs 5:30 am...I converted all BMC RAW I could get in Cineform RAW, pregraded it, ingested it in Premiere, graded it with Colorista 2, denoised it with Neat Video, tried different render formats and the incredible thing is: Even frameserving to TMPGenc works! A full RAW Workflow with one render step! No crashes!

BMC + Cineform RAW = Dreamteam!
Good night!

PaulDelVecchio
08-29-2012, 12:18 AM
No, the CineForm RAW compression is not GPU accelerated, it is just designed to be that fast (GPUs would slow us down.)

I have to say... it's pretty damn fast. I was so surprised. One thing I noticed, my CineformRAW .mov files came in with a greenish tint in Resolve. Any way to fix that? I'm assuming that's because Resolve doesn't recognize the Cineform DB that contains the non-destructive color information?

I also noticed the colors are drastically different when compared to the CinemaDNG files. This makes me wonder if I might accidentally clip some brightness or color information during conversion. Should I not be worrying about that?

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 12:38 AM
We might have a work around to prevent Resolve discarding CineForm Studio based color corrections from RAW files (as it will not do it from 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 encodes.) The RAW look you see in Resolve is the native look on the sensor, which has a green tint, most sensor do. Nothing is clipped within the conversion. Some will want to start from RAW data, some from the first pass corrected image from Studio/FirstLight, others will do all their corrections inside CineForm Studio -- we will do our best to support all these workflows.

PaulDelVecchio
08-29-2012, 12:46 AM
We might have a work around to prevent Resolve discarding CineForm Studio based color corrections from RAW files (as it will not do it from 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 encodes.) The RAW look you see in Resolve is the native look on the sensor, which has a green tint, most sensor do. Nothing is clipped within the conversion. Some will want to start from RAW data, some from the first pass corrected image from Studio/FirstLight, others will do all their corrections inside CineForm Studio -- we will do our best to support all these workflows.

How come the raw CinemaDNG files don't have that green tint when they come into Resolve? Is this because Resolve "corrects" the green tint in the debayering/displaying process? Or would I have to ask Blackmagic about that? :-)

Also, good to know there's no clipping/loss of information, and great to know that there might be a workaround.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 12:57 AM
Resolve is doing the same as Studio does to develop the RAW image, notice there is no green tint in the CineForm Studio edit room. This is simply applying a corrective white balance, then the color matrix, both are stored as metadata within the DNG files. CineForm RAW also carries this metdata, and will actively decode with the correction inside most tools (like Premiere, AE and FCP etc.) The acception is Resolve and SpeedGrade, as both are CineForm RAW aware as choose to decode the unenhanced image for speed, I just wish this could be presented as a user choice (we are seeing if we can override this behavior, and provide user control of this within Studio metadata settings -- no promises.)

PaulDelVecchio
08-29-2012, 01:21 AM
Ahh ok I got it. Hopefully Blackmagic will implement this control or hopefully your workaround will work. You're right about the look in the Cineform Studio edit room. It looks fine.

Another set of things I noticed:

1. On the Windows side: When I reimport (into the Edit Room - step #2) the clips that were converted to CineformRAW and I try to make adjustments, I don't see the adjustments reflected in the viewer in the Edit Room, nor do I see them reflected in Quicktime Player. The only adjustment I've seen in the viewer and in QT player is the crop masks for 1.85, 2.39, etc. Everything else I've tried doesn't update.

2. On the Mac side: Once I copy over the Cineform RAW files from my Windows PC, I can bring these into either Firstlight or Cineform Studio Premium. When I bring them into Cineform Studio's Edit Room, it crashes. I can, however, bring them into Firstlight and the changes show up in everything but Resolve, but sometimes the changes flicker to previous versions. For example, if I give it a certain color look and switch over to Premiere, it'll play. If I then switch back to Firstlight and change the color and add an overlay, the color and overlay flicker on and off.

I know you said not to use Firstlight, but Studio crashes on the Mac, but it's still beta software. I assume the plan for the Mac version is the same? - as in, kill off FirstLight and just use Studio for the changes. I've also noticed that Firstlight doesn't have the helpful presets like Protune. =)

I do realize that most if not all of this stuff you guys already know since it's beta, but I just wanted to state the issues I'm seeing just in case.

adam777
08-29-2012, 01:38 AM
This is all fine for primary color correction with first light in premiere pro CS6, but how would you approach secondary color correction with cineform raw on a PC? Would you use after effects?

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 01:50 AM
Paul,

1) Seems if you have some Active Metadata masked off. Go to the 'C' icon in your system tray, and make sure all corrections (minus Tools and Overlay are enabled.)
762

2) We will see if the Mac version is up to snuff, as that sounds like a bug. The color flickering is Premiere caching stale frames (they don't have a good flush mechanism we can call), if you change playback resolution you can manual flush Premiere's cached frames. Anyway once you play for about 10 seconds the cache is normally cleared.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 01:52 AM
This is all fine for primary color correction with first light in premiere pro CS6, but how would you approach secondary color correction with cineform raw on a PC? Would you use after effects?

Use whatever tools you like, we designed this system to be widely compatible.

hendrik
08-29-2012, 05:06 AM
Could it be possible to add an option to Cineform Studio for choosing to extract full image (2432 x 1366) or default crop size image (2400 x 1350) from DNG files? Or does this cropping have a special purpose for camera, black masked bars on the sides for measuring noise level for example?

David, if it's not too much trouble, could you please tell at which state to apply the sensor WB correction? Is it after sensor > XYZ transform or before? I tried recreating the steps needed to get proper RGB image from raw but I can't get the WB correction working properly.

EDIT: got WB correction working myself

Simon Shasha
08-29-2012, 07:14 AM
Wow, just read through all 18 pages! Information overload!! But encouraging nonetheless! Great to see GoPro team so active and helpful! I really hope Blackmagic Design considers implementing the Cineform RAW codec in camera (assuming the hardware in the BMC is capable) :)

A question to the GoPro team - someone told me that CineformRAW is actually "less stressful" on a camera to encode than ProRes - is this true?

hendrik
08-29-2012, 07:50 AM
Cineform raw should be less stressful because you don't have to debayer, do color conversions and encode to prores format.

Felix
08-29-2012, 09:21 AM
On my System (I7 2600k, 16 GB RAM, GTX 570 with Cuda support in CS5.5) I have Cineform RAWs working smooth with colorista and neatvideo effects applied to it (red timeline, maximum bitdepth, maximum render preview for neat video) at half playback resolution. Colorista and Neat are hardcore effects! They need a lot of power. Stunning!

Edit: With advanced Detail 2 debayering, of course, for neat video.

Felix
08-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Oh, and another BIG thing:
If the cineform RAW converter would integrate the WAV file of the DNG Folder from the BMCC it would be awesome!

Otherwise we have to convert everything and then pick the wave files from the folders one by one and take them to the Cineform RAWs Folder.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 12:37 PM
Could it be possible to add an option to Cineform Studio for choosing to extract full image (2432 x 1366) or default crop size image (2400 x 1350) from DNG files? Or does this cropping have a special purpose for camera, black masked bars on the sides for measuring noise level for example?

I was surprised by the 2400x1350 crop, I don't know the reasons, we are just returning the data the source recommends.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 12:40 PM
Oh, and another BIG thing:
If the cineform RAW converter would integrate the WAV file of the DNG Folder from the BMCC it would be awesome!

Otherwise we have to convert everything and then pick the wave files from the folders one by one and take them to the Cineform RAWs Folder.

We have yet to see any scenes with audio, so haven't investigated its automatic multiplexing.

PaulDelVecchio
08-29-2012, 01:12 PM
Paul,

1) Seems if you have some Active Metadata masked off. Go to the 'C' icon in your system tray, and make sure all corrections (minus Tools and Overlay are enabled.)
762

2) We will see if the Mac version is up to snuff, as that sounds like a bug. The color flickering is Premiere caching stale frames (they don't have a good flush mechanism we can call), if you change playback resolution you can manual flush Premiere's cached frames. Anyway once you play for about 10 seconds the cache is normally cleared.

Weird, my Cineform icon won't display. If I go into the Icon Display settings, it is set to only show when there are notifications. I switched it to always show in system tray and also show when there are notifications and I got a strange pop up that said something like, "This icon is not active and will display next time it is active," but it never displays - even when I start any of the Cineform products.

The suggestions you presented about the cache work fine.

Finally, will you let us know any updates (if it can or can't be fixed) for the Cineform Studio on Mac bug for the incident where it crashes upon importing the CineformRAW files generated on Windows?

Thanks!

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 01:58 PM
Weird, my Cineform icon won't display. If I go into the Icon Display settings, it is set to only show when there are notifications. I switched it to always show in system tray and also show when there are notifications and I got a strange pop up that said something like, "This icon is not active and will display next time it is active," but it never displays - even when I start any of the Cineform products.

This is normally started at Windows boot, not when upon a CineForm application is launch -- we have to do this is this impacts global decoding parameters for the CineForm codec which can be used at any time within other applications. You can manual start the system tray app. either via menu Start->Programs->Startup->CineForm Status or run "C:\Program Files (x86)\CineForm\Tools\GoProCineFormStatusViewer.exe"

Deggen
08-29-2012, 02:16 PM
I was surprised by the 2400x1350 crop, I don't know the reasons, we are just returning the data the source recommends.

2432x1366 isn't 16:9. I think that may be the reason they went for 2400x1350, as it transforms to 1920x1080 more easily, and with less artefacts.

Frank Glencairn
08-29-2012, 02:22 PM
We have yet to see any scenes with audio, so haven't investigated its automatic multiplexing.

I send you one if you want. Having the audio included instead of syncing every clip by hand, would save us a ton of time.

best, Frank

Felix
08-29-2012, 09:00 PM
Whatīs little annoying is that Premiere doesnīt update the whole clip if I make a correction in CF Studio. Scrubbing through the clip makes it jump back and forth lookwise. After some time it updates the clip. Maybe itīs Premiereīsfault.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 09:10 PM
After test grading a lot of footage with CF Studio Premium and colorista 2 inside Premiere I found the main workflow bottlneck is a missing histogramm or waveform monitor inside Studio Premium. I have to make an adjustment, go to Premiere, look what happend, go back to Studio and so on. Just a proposal.

Whatīs little annoying is that Premiere doesnīt update the whole clip if I make a correction in CF Studio. Scrubbing through the clip makes it jump back and forth lookwise. After some time it updates the clip. Maybe itīs Premiereīsfault.

CineForm Studio Premium has both histogram and waveform tools. Yes there is a Premiere caching issue, easy to work around, as discussed earlier.

Andrew_HD
08-29-2012, 09:11 PM
After test grading a lot of footage with CF Studio Premium and colorista 2 inside Premiere I found the main workflow bottlneck is a missing histogramm or waveform monitor inside Studio Premium. I have to make an adjustment, go to Premiere, look what happend, go back to Studio and so on. Just a proposal.

Whatīs little annoying is that Premiere doesnīt update the whole clip if I make a correction in CF Studio. Scrubbing through the clip makes it jump back and forth lookwise. After some time it updates the clip. Maybe itīs Premiereīsfault.


Worth to watch :) :

http://support.cineform.com/entries/20000263-introduction-to-firstlight-part-1-video-tutorial

http://support.cineform.com/entries/20000216-introduction-to-firstlight-part-2-video-tutorial

Felix
08-29-2012, 09:31 PM
CineForm Studio Premium has both histogram and waveform tools. Yes there is a Premiere caching issue, easy to work around, as discussed earlier.

Ups yes, sorry. I found it...

The workaround youīre talking about. I read the whole thread but canīt remember there was talk about it. What was the workaround again? :)

I think I found it. If I load source settings in premiere itīs updated.

David_Newman
08-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Thanks Andrew. While those videos and very old, those abilities are in the new CineForm Studio interface.

Felix, here are the tools in CineForm Studio Premium & Professional (so much easier to use than in FirstLight.)
775

adam777
08-31-2012, 07:06 AM
Is there a quality loss when converting from CinemaDNG to Cineform Raw?

Felix
08-31-2012, 07:14 AM
In theory yes but I canīt tell the difference. I pixel peeped it until my eyes started to tear up. With 3,5:1 compression ratio itīs better than the usual 5:1 Red Epic files.
Itīs just my opinion but I think doing an uncompressed workflow might be okay for 20th Century Fox but is insane for the main target group of the camera!

Those 4 seconds clip fragments John released are 500 MB each. Cineform RAW is 1/4 that size.

adam777
08-31-2012, 07:34 AM
In theory yes but I canīt tell the difference. I pixel peeped it until my eyes started to tear up. With 3,5:1 compression ratio itīs better than the usual 5:1 Red Epic files.
Itīs just my opinion but I think doing an uncompressed workflow might be okay for 20th Century Fox but is insane for the main target group of the camera!

Those 4 seconds clip fragments John released are 500 MB each. Cineform RAW is 1/4 that size.

Thanks Felix

One more question ... what tools do you use for Secondary Color Correction in a Cineform Raw workflow? I'm looking at using PPro CS6 then finishing using the x264Pro plugin for AE. I believe that Resolve doesn't recognise Cineform Raw.

Felix
08-31-2012, 07:44 AM
I color grade in Colorista II plus the the 3 way CC in Premiere. Itsī secondary CC is very easy to use/mask. Colorista II can do everything (at least for me) except saturation adjustments... You canīt adjust shadow/gamma/gain saturation seperately, only overall saturation (HSL qualifier, too, of course). For that I use 3 way CC from Premiere

If this X264 Pro Plugin cost 99 $ I would buy it without thought but 300 $ is far too much.

David_Newman
08-31-2012, 12:27 PM
In theory yes but I canīt tell the difference. I pixel peeped it until my eyes started to tear up. With 3,5:1 compression ratio itīs better than the usual 5:1 Red Epic files.
Itīs just my opinion but I think doing an uncompressed workflow might be okay for 20th Century Fox but is insane for the main target group of the camera!

Those 4 seconds clip fragments John released are 500 MB each. Cineform RAW is 1/4 that size.

Thanks, that is what we were going for, quality so distinguishable your eyes tear up trying to find the difference. :)

David_Newman
08-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Thanks Felix

One more question ... what tools do you use for Secondary Color Correction in a Cineform Raw workflow? I'm looking at using PPro CS6 then finishing using the x264Pro plugin for AE. I believe that Resolve doesn't recognise Cineform Raw.

Resolve does handle CineForm RAW, but currently ignores the image corrections applied in Studio/FL -- we're working on a solution for that.

PaulDelVecchio
08-31-2012, 03:11 PM
Resolve does handle CineForm RAW, but currently ignores the image corrections applied in Studio/FL -- we're working on a solution for that.

You guys are doing amazing things. Just out of curiosity, the Slumdog Millionaire workflow... did they use Cineform as an offline edit format or did they take the Cineform files all the way into finishing?

Frank Glencairn
08-31-2012, 03:17 PM
As far as I know, they recorded in Cineform.

David_Newman
08-31-2012, 03:34 PM
About 70% of the film was shoot on with a SI-2K mini, tethered to a Macbook Pro (2006 vintage) compressing the camera's 2048x1152 at 24fps to CineForm RAW (very close to the same codec technology today.) They then used FirstLight for very minimal corrections and selected a demosaic appropriate for the scene, then exported all the sources to DPX files using scripts running our CF2DPX shell tool. The edit and finish was more traditional, as 30% of the feature was from scanned 35mm film, so everything was normalized to 2K DPX files, becoming the new master. Slumdog was the first mostly digitally acquired feature (compressed or uncompressed) to win a best cinematography (and best picture.) It was a good year for CineForm (life has been pretty good to us since also.)

vealti
08-31-2012, 04:07 PM
Resolve does handle CineForm RAW, but currently ignores the image corrections applied in Studio/FL -- we're working on a solution for that.

Resolve will recognize Cineform as a .mov file. It doesn't recognize avi files including Cineform .avi.

Andrew_HD
08-31-2012, 04:13 PM
Resolve does not read any AVI files (which is a shame on Windows- it could at least read v210 or other uncompressed or CF files), but with CF it's not a problem, as even if you have CF AVI files you can quickly (as fast as your HDD is) re-wrap them into MOV without any quality loss.

Andrew_HD
08-31-2012, 04:19 PM
In theory yes but I canīt tell the difference. I pixel peeped it until my eyes started to tear up. With 3,5:1 compression ratio itīs better than the usual 5:1 Red Epic files.
Itīs just my opinion but I think doing an uncompressed workflow might be okay for 20th Century Fox but is insane for the main target group of the camera!

Those 4 seconds clip fragments John released are 500 MB each. Cineform RAW is 1/4 that size.

Well- in real world I would imagine that it would be very difficult to tell the difference even on a big cinema screen. There is no way to do so on any size home TV. Don't also forget that digital cinema is compressed and 200Mbit JPEG2000 specially for 4K is not a lot at all. 3:1 or even 4:1 compression is good enough even for Hollywood- SR tapes are at this level also. It's maybe more about keeping higher than 10bit depth for heavy adjustments than actual compression degradation. CF can be 12bit and this is already quite a lot.

Andrew_HD
08-31-2012, 04:26 PM
If our big live shooting project will happen we will be shooting 4K (RED) and my idea is to do 1st CC/debayering (it will be just small color correction- no big grading job) and then convert to 4K Cineform or Grass Valley HQX and work with 4K files (online at full quality) all the way as they would be HD (or SD). Lets see if this will be possible :) I know that this is not an issue for 1 camera, but this will be rather multicam shooting- probably 5 cameras, so this may be problematic.

Felix
08-31-2012, 08:25 PM
Bugreport:

- The Tint control from Studio still behaves like the one in First Light. For example: -19 is ok, -20 is completely green, -21 is ok
- It crashes pretty often, mostly after importing files.

David_Newman
08-31-2012, 11:48 PM
Importing crash: what type of import, CinemaDNG or converted CineForm files? We are tracking down a crash in the edit room, but haven't encounted any in the import room (we don't have a BMCC camera, so have only test with what we download.) I see what you mean about -20 green tint, not completely green, but more green than is should be.

Felix
09-01-2012, 04:24 AM
Sorry, with import I meant import in the edit room. Thatīs for cineform raw avis. Yeah, not completely green, but like -19 +15 -21

The "remember settings" function of the import room doesnīt seem to work. It always goes back to default (medium quality, protune) after program restart.

Let us know, when the functions from the beta are in the retail version, so we can buy it. :)

adam777
09-01-2012, 05:13 AM
Resolve does handle CineForm RAW, but ... .

Hi David. Does Cineform Raw work in Resolve's PC version, Mac version or both?

Felix
09-01-2012, 09:20 AM
Resolve should read Cineform RAW MOVs on any platform, but not AVIs

vealti
09-01-2012, 09:32 AM
Hi David. Does Cineform Raw work in Resolve's PC version, Mac version or both?

Yes, but only if you use a .mov version. Did a quick test the other day. Used the beta GoPro Studio Premium to convert the dng files to a Cineform.mov file. Loaded up in Resolve 9 beta. I'm on a Win7 64bit system. Next is to load in Premiere CS6 and see how that works with everything.

m0fe
09-01-2012, 01:32 PM
Hey guys, I'm on PC is it possible to get the DPX2CF.exe to spit out .mov files without using the command line?

David_Newman
09-01-2012, 01:45 PM
What does that mean to use a command line tool without the command line? We don't need DPX2CF any more with the new Studio, although it is still supported, and it supports MOVs.

m0fe
09-01-2012, 02:00 PM
What does that mean to use a command line tool without the command line? We don't need DPX2CF any more with the new Studio, although it is still supported, and it supports MOVs.

It was the conversion tool from eyepatchfilms I was referring to. The new version of studio is that the free version "The GoPro CineForm Studio" ?

David_Newman
09-01-2012, 02:04 PM
Read back for 5 pages. We are talking about a beta version of CineForm Studio Premium 1.3, a $299 package (free to existing Premium customers.)

m0fe
09-01-2012, 02:05 PM
Thanks will get myself a copy

Felix
09-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Suggestion:

I just run into magenta highlight problems, googled it and it seems to be a regular issue with raw footage.
I found out that RED has a slider in their RED Cine X software called DRX which alligns the top of the channels and gets rid of magenta highlights. That would be very cool to have in Cineform Studio!

David_Newman
09-05-2012, 12:53 AM
New beta build with some bug fixes:

CineForm Studio Professional http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPro-1.3.0.154-Setup.exe?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ2OHNE77HOUYJB6A&Expires=1347684593&Signature=5WxsZIc1l7AU//rMB7RBGCbCg2U%3D

CineForm Studio Premium http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPremium-1.3.0.154-Setup.exe?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ2OHNE77HOUYJB6A&Expires=1347684619&Signature=oKnqrxfel73tFRnOYC0b6uuFzOg%3D

vealti
09-05-2012, 08:19 PM
A couple of issues with I'm having with the latest Premium beta. Running in trial mode on Win7 64 bit.
1. Cineform Studio Premium crashes when trying to import converted files for editing. Just converted some dng files with it to avi and mov. Left all settings at default except the file type. Both crash Studio when importing for editing.
2. In Premiere CS6 the .mov version crashes Premiere. Avi seems to work fine. (Why again wont the PC version of Resolve take my avi files?)
3. In Premiere CS6 using the avi version the Cineform Color Correction and Cineform Color Balance filters make the clip go solid black. I tried a couple of Premiere's color correction filters and they work fine.

jabloomf1230
09-05-2012, 08:43 PM
A couple of issues with I'm having with the latest Premium beta. Running in trial mode on Win7 64 bit.
(Why again wont the PC version of Resolve take my avi files?)
.

Resolve 9 doesn't support reading Cineform (or any other) AVI files:

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/detail/supportnotes/supportnote?sid=3948&pid=11735&snid=11916&isSDK=false&os=win

The only place you will find AVI is in the word DaVinci.;)

BTW, I'm having the same issue with Premiere CS6 (a converted MOV file causes a crash when you try to load it to the timeline). But I'm not seeing any problems with Go Pro Studio (licensed Professional version of the 1.3 beta) under Windows 7, but that's par for the course with beta software. I assume all you did was import the first DNG frame.

vealti
09-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Ha! AVI in DaVinci! That made me smile. Yeah, I know Resolve doesn't support avi files. It's one of my irritations with it, forcing PC users to use .mov. But that is another thread.
Are you using the latest beta 1.3.0.154 that David just posted? Also I'm using the Premium version since that's what I will be able to upgrade to from Neo. I had the previous beta and didn't have the problem. I converted one of John's Afterglow shots to Cineform. When I try to import that Cineform file into GoPro Studio it crashes. Both avi and mov Cineform files do the same.

David_Newman
09-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the reports.

1) Tracking down the MOV import issue in CS6. AVI is working fine here.
2) Not seeing import issues in Studio.
3) Fixed the "DRX" feature in Studio (Felix, we've had that for a long time, is just wasn't working correctly -- called "Sat. Clip pt" is workspace -- will be in build 155 or greater.)
4) Old CC filters in Premerie are not upgraded for CS6, work in C 5.x only, this one is known, most users have switched to Studio/FL color correction or use other tools, so these have been a low priority.

Jake Segraves
09-06-2012, 03:36 PM
1. Cineform Studio Premium crashes when trying to import converted files for editing. Just converted some dng files with it to avi and mov. Left all settings at default except the file type. Both crash Studio when importing for editing.


I'm not seeing any crashes in Studio's Edit Room either, but we can troubleshoot this issue via the CineForm Support website if you'd like:

http://support.cineform.com.

vealti
09-06-2012, 04:05 PM
David - Thanks for the info. I never really used the Cinefom Color Correction filters either. I was just going through the paces to see what was working since I just updated Premiere and GoPro Studio.
Jake - Still crashing so I'll take it over to support. Thanks.

pharpsied
09-06-2012, 10:05 PM
I just want to know can I keep the same spatial resolution with cineform or am I forced to debayer down to HD?

David_Newman
09-06-2012, 10:33 PM
I just want to know can I keep the same spatial resolution with cineform or am I forced to debayer down to HD?

The debayer is only at native resolution, so your output will be 2400x1350

pharpsied
09-06-2012, 10:53 PM
Beautiful! Will we have a release version in time for the end of limited shipping? I am just going to get it now... Actually in the next week or so...

David_Newman
09-06-2012, 11:17 PM
Our beta might be like Resolves beta, a full working release with regular updates. If you purchase CineForm Studio Premium, it is a full activation of 1.3 (beta and upcoming full release.)

pharpsied
09-06-2012, 11:22 PM
Awesome.

Felix
09-07-2012, 07:53 AM
The debayer is only at native resolution, so your output will be 2400x1350

So no 2400 x 1348 anymore?

vealti
09-07-2012, 11:50 AM
OK, I have a couple of stupid questions. How do we know if we are converting dng files to Cineform Raw and not just a standard Cineform 4:2:2 file? The only difference I see in the converting stage is the dng files have a curve encode/decode option. Also in properties other than the frame rate and frame size I don't see a difference between a raw file and standard file.

Also, what if for some reason I wanted to convert the dng files direct to a standard Cineform file, not a raw version? Can that be done?

Andrew_HD
09-07-2012, 12:54 PM
Just a note regarding Cineform AVI files and Resolve.
It's as easy as opening AVI in QT player and saving QT reference mov file. Resolve is very happy to work with this reference file :)

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 02:06 PM
So no 2400 x 1348 anymore?

Yes that was fixed also.

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 02:08 PM
Just a note regarding Cineform AVI files and Resolve.
It's as easy as opening AVI in QT player and saving QT reference mov file. Resolve is very happy to work with this reference file :)

Cool find. We have a workaround, but this is good solution if the QT Ref movie doesn't force you it 8-bit (I expect it might.)

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 02:10 PM
OK, I have a couple of stupid questions. How do we know if we are converting dng files to Cineform Raw and not just a standard Cineform 4:2:2 file? The only difference I see in the converting stage is the dng files have a curve encode/decode option. Also in properties other than the frame rate and frame size I don't see a difference between a raw file and standard file.

Also, what if for some reason I wanted to convert the dng files direct to a standard Cineform file, not a raw version? Can that be done?

CineForm RAW is a standard file, just a different Chroma format, just like 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2. Encoding to 4:2:2 directly, means applying a demosaic during the transcode. We could offer this but it is less flexible than our currrent solution.

Andrew_HD
09-07-2012, 02:25 PM
Cool find. We have a workaround, but this is good solution if the QT Ref movie doesn't force you it 8-bit (I expect it might.)

Not see the reason why it should- it just points to "cineform data". Resolve sees it as it would be stored in MOV container and it reports it as 16bit actually. Resolve 8 was reporting CF files as 10bit, but there is something different in Resolve 9, which reports CF files (all which I tried) as 16bit now.

QT player works actually very well with AVI files as long as decoder exists (even on MAC). For example ProRes data stored in AVI container works fine on MAC in QT player and FCP 7. At the end it's just an wrapper and I think Resolve accesses "raw coded data", so as long as does it well it should work fine with real MOV file or reference MOV pointing to AVI. It's also quite easy to test with some CF file with gradient.

On top of this- Resolve does not use CF QT codec on Windows to decode CF MOV files- it has native decoding build in, so it's just unwrapping data and in case of real MOV or reference file this ends up with the same data to decode (at least by my logic). I don't think (need to check) I even have CF QT codec on the machine, where Resolve is installed.

This method should also work on MAC- if does not it may need installing QT 7 player (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL923) alongside QT X or whatever is new QT called :)

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 03:45 PM
The reason I have my doubts that the file is directly accessing the sample, it would still be bypassing the Active Metadata. It might be 16-bit as our QuickTime codec support that, but a do expect with a reference movie that QuickTime is being used.

Andrew_HD
09-07-2012, 04:09 PM
The reason I have my doubts that the file is directly accessing the sample, it would still be bypassing the Active Metadata. It might be 16-bit as our QuickTime codec support that, but a do expect with a reference movie that QuickTime is being used.

These were not RAW files- just "normal" ones.

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 05:06 PM
Okay, I know get it now. Thanks. Sorry for being slow on you cool discovery.

Andrew_HD
09-07-2012, 05:13 PM
David- are you visiting IBC?

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 06:43 PM
I'm not at IBC this year. At the GoPro booth in the CineForm section you will find Tim Bucklin, a very knowledgeable engineer from the pro apps Windows group.

vealti
09-07-2012, 07:14 PM
Just a note regarding Cineform AVI files and Resolve.
It's as easy as opening AVI in QT player and saving QT reference mov file. Resolve is very happy to work with this reference file :)
Thanks for the tip Andrew. Can that be batch processed? If not it's one more step for every clip. I'm really just starting to work with these files and Resolve and Premiere. Now that the camera is starting to ship it's time to figure out what workflows is going to work for me.

jabloomf1230
09-07-2012, 07:25 PM
CineForm RAW is a standard file, just a different Chroma format, just like 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2. Encoding to 4:2:2 directly, means applying a demosaic during the transcode. We could offer this but it is less flexible than our currrent solution.

I think what he was asking, is how would you keep track of which Cineform files are in each chroma format? I just assumed that the DNG RAW frames were converted by Studio only to Cineform RAW. In FirstLight, you can see compression subtype and chroma information under the Cineform Metadata. I'm assuming that Studio will eventually have the same capability (or maybe it does now and I can't find it).

jabloomf1230
09-07-2012, 09:44 PM
@Andrew_HD - Very nice!

It is a bit cleaner than an HDLink re-wrap from AVI to MOV and the reference file is a lot smaller because it consists solely of the metadata/header information for the MOV wrapper that's been translated from the original AVI file. Your suggestion does allow you to work natively on a Windows PC with AVI files, but you have to be careful not to forget the explicit "linkage" between the reference file and original. I've done that in the past by copying the original file to another folder and then stupidly forgetting about how the two are tied together by a permanent "umbilical cord".

I did notice one other "issue", at least for me. If I tried to open the QT Player Pro with Resolve already running, the Player would lock up. There must be some conflict between the Resolve QT components and those provided by Apple. Of course, Resolve is supposed to operate in full screen mode, exclusively (no alt-tabbing, etc.), so by using the alt key, something is probably getting messed up.

So eventually, if there is a workaround for the active metadata issue for RAW Cineform files:

[BMCC 12 bit uncompressed RAW]-------->GoPro Studio------>[Cineform 12 bit RAW AVI] ------>QT Player Pro------>[Cineform MOV Reference File]------->Resolve------>[Final product]
.................................................. ................................................^ |
.................................................. ................................................| V
.................................................. .................................... Premiere Pro CS6, etc.

and be able to use active metadata and also use Resolve.

David_Newman
09-07-2012, 11:26 PM
If anyone needs a solution for the lack of Active Metadata in Resolve, we have a custom build of the decoder that doesn't let Resolve bypass the A.M. We will formalize that proceedure at some point, so that it is under user control. No reference movie required if MOVs are your working format.

Frank Glencairn
09-08-2012, 01:43 AM
If anyone needs a solution for the lack of Active Metadata in Resolve, we have a custom build of the decoder that doesn't let Resolve bypass the A.M. We will formalize that proceedure at some point, so that it is under user control. No reference movie required if MOVs are your working format.

It's amazing what you guys can do David.

I used to work with FL in combination with Premiere and really liked the way FL automatically linked back and forth when you click on a clip.
I looked at Studio professional yesterday (the latest beta) and I miss some of my workflow.
Can`t find the buttons for matadata and tools. Is that only in the premium version?

thanks, Frank

Andrew_HD
09-08-2012, 06:44 AM
@Andrew_HD - Very nice!

It is a bit cleaner than an HDLink re-wrap from AVI to MOV and the reference file is a lot smaller because it consists solely of the metadata/header information for the MOV wrapper that's been translated from the original AVI file. Your suggestion does allow you to work natively on a Windows PC with AVI files, but you have to be careful not to forget the explicit "linkage" between the reference file and original. I've done that in the past by copying the original file to another folder and then stupidly forgetting about how the two are tied together by a permanent "umbilical cord".

I did notice one other "issue", at least for me. If I tried to open the QT Player Pro with Resolve already running, the Player would lock up. There must be some conflict between the Resolve QT components and those provided by Apple. Of course, Resolve is supposed to operate in full screen mode, exclusively (no alt-tabbing, etc.), so by using the alt key, something is probably getting messed up.

So eventually, if there is a workaround for the active metadata issue for RAW Cineform files:

[BMCC 12 bit uncompressed RAW]-------->GoPro Studio------>[Cineform 12 bit RAW AVI] ------>QT Player Pro------>[Cineform MOV Reference File]------->Resolve------>[Final product]
.................................................. ................................................^ |
.................................................. ................................................| V
.................................................. .................................... Premiere Pro CS6, etc.

and be able to use active metadata and also use Resolve.

Hehehe- I'm not sure about whole metadata issues- if there is one, I think this will be solved by CF anyway. I just wanted to point that if someone has CF AVI files (for whatever reason they are AVI not MOV) and wants to use them in Resolve than there is even no need for re-wrapping. You can simply use QT reference files for this.

David_Newman
09-08-2012, 12:21 PM
It's amazing what you guys can do David.

I used to work with FL in combination with Premiere and really liked the way FL automatically linked back and forth when you click on a clip.
I looked at Studio professional yesterday (the latest beta) and I miss some of my workflow.
Can`t find the buttons for matadata and tools. Is that only in the premium version?

thanks, Frank

Linking to the clip is supported through Premiere's "source settings" menu item. The auto-NLE sync was hit and miss for some, so we plan to rethink this in Studio. Displaying the passive metadata is also still only in FirstLight (that will be ported), again the mechanism in FirstLight was poor, we want to a better good in Studio. The tools are supported in Premium/Professional, with a significantly easier to use interface (they where a total hack in FirstLight.)
See tool info in this post http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?50-Cineform-Conversion-anyone-use&p=18215&viewfull=1#post18215

Frank Glencairn
09-08-2012, 03:45 PM
L... The tools are supported in Premium/Professional, with a significantly easier to use interface (they where a total hack in FirstLight.)
See tool info in this post http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?50-Cineform-Conversion-anyone-use&p=18215&viewfull=1#post18215

Thanks David, but that's what drives me nuts - this "Tools" tab under the ext. display settings doesn't show up at all.
Did I miss something?

Frank

David_Newman
09-08-2012, 08:21 PM
Thanks David, but that's what drives me nuts - this "Tools" tab under the ext. display settings doesn't show up at all.
Did I miss something?

Frank

It is the Professional or Premium version, should state so on the background right-top of the Studio window. Tools is scrolled to, along with all the database controls and split point slider.

Frank Glencairn
09-09-2012, 03:45 AM
It's the professional Version.

Just tried to download the Premium beta, but your link doesn't work anymore.

933

David_Newman
09-09-2012, 05:52 PM
Yes the old link expire to cheap users up to date.

This one will last: new beta build with some bug fixes (getting close):
CineForm Studio Professional http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPro-1.3.0.155b-Setup.exe
CineForm Studio Premium http://software.gopro.com/beta/GoProCineFormStudioPremium-1.3.0.155b-Setup.exe

Regarding tools:
Yes the scroll bar to the right of Playback "Default (Half-res)", that will reveal everything you thought was missing.

Soeren Mueller
09-09-2012, 06:14 PM
Hey David, really nice work! Raw with Cineform works amazingly well - will be my prefered workflow for RAW.

So any hint on a possible Cineform RAW recording option in the BMC in the future? That would be a dream coming true.. ;)

Frank Glencairn
09-09-2012, 06:22 PM
Y
Regarding tools:
Yes the scroll bar to the right of Playback "Default (Half-res)", that will reveal everything you thought was missing.

Dang!

937

I feel like an idiot.

Thanks David,

Frank

David_Newman
09-09-2012, 08:38 PM
Hey David, really nice work! Raw with Cineform works amazingly well - will be my prefered workflow for RAW.

So any hint on a possible Cineform RAW recording option in the BMC in the future? That would be a dream coming true.. ;)

Just in case the BMD decision makers are reading, we would very much like that to happen. I don't think licensing or business issues would stop this, however there might be some technical issues I don't know about. While CineForm RAW has significant less computational requirements than DCT codecs like DNxHD and ProRES, it can require more working memory for a full frame wavelet compressor like CineForm. If it can't happen in this generation camera, we hope for the next, either a CineForm RAW or the upcoming SMPTE standard VC-5 based on CineForm.