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View Full Version : The bmcc revolution is as a front end to a great postprocessing ecosystem



Philip Lipetz
06-14-2012, 07:22 AM
Too many people are putting the BMCC into one of two existing ways of filming, cine and videography.

My personal prediction is that both camps, the "better video cam" and "inexpensive Arriflex cine set cam" crowds, are wrong. If the medium is the message, if the BMCC is truly something new, then it will give rise to a new way of approaching moving mages. Just as the 5d gave rise to a new aesthetic that is sometimes requested even on more expensive shoots, the BMCC will create its own niche.

My personal belief, as unsubstantiated as any other, is that the BMCC will start a revolution that will bring the benefits of great post processing to lower level projects. Right now people are not oriented to the tremendous advantage that big productions have due to expensive postprocessing houses massaging the images, soon BM, a post processing equipment manufacturer, will bring that inot the realm of affordability for peoople who shoot low end features and shorts.

It is time to see the the BMCC is just a front end for a postproduction pipeline. That postproduction pipeline is ignored by most videographers, even those that do simple grading of their films. We are ignoring it when we talk of the BMCC is isolation for its ecosystem. We ignore it when we work becuase that post,production pipeline, not the acquisition tool, is really the difference between serious commercial features and what most of us do. Robert Rodriguez may have filmed El Mariachi for next to nothing but when it was picked for distributionmany times more was spent on postproduction to get it ready for audiences.

There is a reason that the BMCC ships with Resolve, becuase You need both to realize the visiOn that BM has, and to step into the revolution they offer.

Grug
06-14-2012, 08:22 AM
I'm not so sure, I think the big thing we're going to see is lots of poorly graded images as people wrestle with grading the flat log-ish images that the camera will produce.

Philip Lipetz
06-14-2012, 09:15 AM
Hope you are wrong. been looking at the Resolve 9 demo, and the new UI is so much closer to established NLE paradigms that I think people might get it.

I remember when the dSLR video revolution started people thought that they would only produce poor shot images since the people who were going to use the cameras were no trained as we're the established professional cadre. I think that the real secret in whatbBM is doing may be in Resolve 9 and the BMCC is just a way to open it up to the world beyond the established professinal Resolve colourists.

Samuel H
06-14-2012, 10:54 AM
I don't know about "filming, cine and videography", but I sure thing this camera will push a new -and great- postprocessing ecosystem. In the sense that lots of people will get used to working with RAW video. Just like photogs did with RAW stills. The tools will get a lot better, and people will learn what great things they can do with them. Also, DaVinci Resolve will get a lot of love from the BMC users, and will become a much more popular option.

And I don't think that "flood of poorly graded images" will last long. I haven't used Resolve, but I guess it comes with some pretty decent presets. If it doesn't, soon people will start uploading settings and tools to make the initial steps of working with RAW video a lot easier. Maybe even color gurus like Stu Maschwitz will start selling preset suites (something like Magic Bullet Quick Looks, but for grading BMC footage with Resolve).

(of course, there will be lots of issues and hiccups initially, but I'm waiting for the big-sensor BlackMagic camera, I'll let you pioneers iron out the kinks)

Cheezweezl
06-14-2012, 11:13 AM
The low budget crowd already has access to one of the best finishing tools in existence, for free. Of course I'm talking about resolve lite. This means big things to some and absolutely nothing to most. It's not as if the wall that was holding low budget productions back was simply the cost of software and hardware. These are just tools. It doesn't mean everyone can be a great colorist. That's as ridiculous as saying if Home Depot started giving away hammers, nails, and lumber, everyone could build their own house.

Using history as a guide, I'd say a large number of people who shoot with this camera will either shoot 709 or they will shoot log but not process it the way it was meant to be processed. The reason being is that this revolution has already happened with the RED. How many low budget RED shows shoot raw, make proxies, edit, reconnect the raw, and grade raw? By percentage, I can tell you that it's very low. If you want to see an example of what these high end tools are doing out in the world, search for "scarlet test video" on YouTube. Being that the BMC is much cheaper and more accessible to the masses, I'd say we are in for some pretty horrible examples of what it can do.

razz16mm
06-14-2012, 12:24 PM
IMO the real revolution, the one that Red started, is raw acquisition. Post grading tools have gotten cheaper and will make sophisticated grading more accessible for sure. They won't make you an artist however.
Most of the bad grades I see with Red footage comes from treating it like video. People do simple one lights for transcode, then try to grade the video instead of doing the sophisticated grading with the raw footage where one has so much more space to work as well as more sophisticated tools to work with. One can for instance do HDR processing on single exposure raw footage to recover highlight and shadow detail that is lost in a simple one light transcode. There is a lot more potential with this than just applying a fixed log curve.

Philip Lipetz
06-14-2012, 03:47 PM
IMO the real revolution, the one that Red started, is raw acquisition. Post grading tools have gotten cheaper and will make sophisticated grading more accessible for sure. They won't make you an artist however.
Most of the bad grades I see with Red footage comes from treating it like video. People do simple one lights for transcode, then try to grade the video instead of doing the sophisticated grading with the raw footage where one has so much more space to work as well as more sophisticated tools to work with. One can for instance do HDR processing on single exposure raw footage to recover highlight and shadow detail that is lost in a simple one light transcode. There is a lot more potential with this than just applying a fixed log curve.

+1

RAW is just another way to say that living in post is the goal. Sure there has always been RAW and Resolve Lite but until now there was nothing to push them into wide spread use. Now there is, the BMCC. nd that. Why the post revolting will start soon.

BM is a post equipment company, not a camera company, and they introduced only what was needed to drive the post revolution. that is why the BMCC has a new type of design philosophy.

nickjbedford
06-14-2012, 05:22 PM
I'm getting this because it's designed for a post production, grading workflow. But then, I already know how to colour correct and grade, so I'm personally really looking forward to being able to work with a raw-like image in Resolve (log ProRes).

I'm of the opinion that the BMD Cinema Camera will first and foremost increase the ability to work in a high quality grading workflow for a smaller price, particularly aiding the DSLR shooters (who are already producing amazing work anyway). If you don't know how to grade and you're shooting log, then probably you're stuck regardless of the camera you're shooting. In that case, hand it over to a colourist, I suppose. Even with my DSLR do I fully grade the footage I'm working on, as much as the codec will allow me to anyway.

I certainly think it's a game changer though, for the markets it's aimed at.

Philip Lipetz
06-14-2012, 05:58 PM
Exactly, they bundle the camera and Resolve becuase thier vision is front to back workflow. I bet they have some exciting things under wraps. or example they are inbred very heavily with Apple and FCP X, not a NLE you generally associate with specialist programso like Resolve. I bet there are some things still to be revealed. apple needs their professional credibility and they need a front t back solution.

rick.lang
06-21-2012, 10:18 AM
Exactly, they bundle the camera and Resolve becuase thier vision is front to back workflow. I bet they have some exciting things under wraps. or example they are inbred very heavily with Apple and FCP X, not a NLE you generally associate with specialist programso like Resolve. I bet there are some things still to be revealed. apple needs their professional credibility and they need a front t back solution.

Although maybe only a small piece of the puzzle, I wonder if the new MacBook Pro with Retina Display fits into the plan. Even on a 15" screen, using the 1920x1200 virtual screen, you can run Resolve while the HD video resides in a pixel-for-pixel GD panel showing you everything as you grade. It's an improvement anyway. And with a hint of new iMacs in the fall, perhaps more impressive workstations with a capable NVIDIA CUDA GPU?

Tzedekh
06-21-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm not so sure, I think the big thing we're going to see is lots of poorly graded images as people wrestle with grading the flat log-ish images that the camera will produce.
I'm not sure I agree. As long as people are aware that's how the pregrade image is supposed to look, what results can't be worse than heavily graded DSLR footage that had so much already baked in (possibly including blow highlights) and a brittle, unforgiving codec.

Philip Lipetz
06-21-2012, 10:59 AM
I think there will a great sharing of LUTs and grading profiles that will make the workflow accessible to prosumers.

mhood
06-21-2012, 11:23 AM
There might also be more people than we think shooting in ProResHQ 709. A baked in look isn't always a big problem...especially if it is a good look.

laco
06-21-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure I agree. As long as people are aware that's how the pregrade image is supposed to look, what results can't be worse than heavily graded DSLR footage that had so much already baked in (possibly including blow highlights) and a brittle, unforgiving codec.

Grading log is a bit harder... For example, grading before applying a REC709 lut is almost impossible. (Because there are no lift/gamma/gain, you turn the gamma to the yellow, and the whole picture will be yellowish).

Anyway, I'm planning to do some basic tutorials grading log BMC footage in Resolve.

Andrew
06-21-2012, 12:43 PM
Grading log is a bit harder... For example, grading before applying a REC709 lut is almost impossible. (Because there are no lift/gamma/gain, you turn the gamma to the yellow, and the whole picture will be yellowish).


Hey Laco, Davinci 9 has a log grading mode that has shadows, mids, highlights and offset. Looks like it gives you more control for grading log images. Check out the demo.

http://youtu.be/XOMlQA2eV8o?t=10m21s

laco
06-21-2012, 02:03 PM
Hey Laco, Davinci 9 has a log grading mode that has shadows, mids, highlights and offset. Looks like it gives you more control for grading log images. Check out the demo.

http://youtu.be/XOMlQA2eV8o?t=10m21s

Yes, I saw that, but I'm not sure if it's like that. We'll see:)
I think these are just other tools, but you still work like this with log footage:

Corrector nodes before LUT (like bringing back highlight) —> node with LUT —> "normal" grading.

Cheezweezl
06-21-2012, 03:49 PM
There might also be more people than we think shooting in ProResHQ 709. A baked in look isn't always a big problem...especially if it is a good look.

i know i will be very careful regarding this. if i'm shooting something low budget, that i won't be involved with in post, i will talk at length with director and producer. if i feel that they have a grasp on proper post workflow and understand a log vs. a 709 image, then i will shoot log. if not, they will get 709. i wouldn't want them to release an uncorrected or poorly corrected log image with my name on it. i'd rather give them something at 90% done, something that looks great right out of camera.

i've had this situation happen with red footage. so many people want to shoot on red simply because they heard it is the best. they don't have budget for proper post. then they release it all flat because they don't know any better.

Peter Chamberlain
06-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Grading log is a bit harder... For example, grading before applying a REC709 lut is almost impossible. (Because there are no lift/gamma/gain, you turn the gamma to the yellow, and the whole picture will be yellowish).

Anyway, I'm planning to do some basic tutorials grading log BMC footage in Resolve.


It's true Resolve v9 offers both Log and traditional TV Gamma linear grading and unique to DaVinci Resolve you can use both controls in every corrector node.

Then there is the issue of where to put the LUT. This depends on the final destination. If its for TV and your grading monitor is Rec.709 calibrated then certainly grade the first node in log if you like and then add the log to lin LUT. If the output is for film, put the log to lin LUT in the display LUT setting in Resolve so the monitor gets the TV linear signal its looking for and the whole grading pipeline and the render can be in log. (of course there is still film out lut calibration to consider in this case)

The simple rule is, for a TV finish, use a Rec.709 calibrated monitor and what you see on the monitor is what you will render. Apply a log to lin LUT for technical accuracy but otherwise, just use the grading tools as you like to get the result you need.
Peter