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Kholi
02-05-2013, 06:38 PM
Can you isolate only color noise in Resolve 9 or is it an all in one?

After reading that thread where the guy saw moire in R9 but not LR4, I tried LR4 on a shot with moire in it and it the color noise reduction killed the minor amounts in hair that usually bug the crap out of me.

jchriston
02-05-2013, 11:19 PM
unless i'm clueless at resolve, which i might be, i believe the NR is just all in one. you can blend it back with the original image, but it's nothing like the color and luminance noise controls in ACR

I think ACR does this spectacularly and have been really thrilled with the results when I toyed around with some of the raw stuff i shot. I'd love to see this control in a future version of resolve. maybe peter c will chime in on this, or someone with more experience dealing with NR in resolve.

I've heard quite a few times that people just do their NR outside of resolve in things such as neat video or whatever, where you can separate color and luminance noise, and that they do their NR before or after the coloring session. this seems like a huge pain in the ass for most applications though

CaptainHook
02-05-2013, 11:52 PM
These are the NR controls in the full version of Resolve (ignore the YRGB values above):

http://f.cl.ly/items/0D1w1v450K2z1t2S1C2H/NR%20in%20Resolve.jpg

Granted it's node based so you can use all the usual qualifiers/power windows/etc to control where it happens but there doesn't seem to be anyway to do anything else that i know of. Admittedly, i still haven't even tried it since i've owned Neat Video Pro for over a year now.

Kholi
02-05-2013, 11:55 PM
How does Neatvideo do for the moire??? Did you try it out?

CaptainHook
02-05-2013, 11:58 PM
No i haven't - point me to the DNG frame you want me to test and i'll do it tonight for you. :)

Andrew
02-06-2013, 12:29 AM
You might want to try PhotoNinja by Picure Code.

http://www.picturecode.com/index.php

It's an interesting and very high quality raw converter. You can change the debayer method to one that is more suited for cameras with weak AA filters. They also have Noise Ninja built in, which seems to be a great NR tool.

I think it's just awesome that this camera uses an open raw format! Being able to use different programs to get different looks is great and I really do feel that each raw converter has it's own look. You can definitely get similar results from each of them, but there are also times when you get a certain look that just can't be recreated by another converter.

Photo Ninja is definitely one to check out.

I know processing footage through programs made for stills is a huge pain, but it's been fun for me just to see the variation you get from different methods.

Kholi
02-06-2013, 12:34 AM
Thanks Andrew, that looks pretty cool. I doubt it outputs to anything like DPX or such haha. But I'll give it a try.

Have you messed with it at all for moire?

Andrew
02-06-2013, 02:44 AM
I've only played with the demo, but I did try one shot that had some moire and it definitely helped.

Jon7athan
02-06-2013, 02:48 AM
This may be way off topic. Has anyone seen this video where the author is using reverse proxies to bring his CinemaDNG files into Premiere Pro & After Effects? He even pulls up the RAW converter in After Effects. You could theoretically use the Noise Reduction processing of Adobe Camera Raw on your CinemaDNG files this way without converting to TIFF or PSDs.

CinemaDNG Round Tripping (https://vimeo.com/53379028#)

Copying metadata to a CinemaDNG sequence for import to After Effects. No TIFF or PSD conversion.

Cinema DNG: Using Lightroom and After Effects (https://vimeo.com/53637536)

RobertJ
02-06-2013, 06:57 AM
PhotoNinja is pretty cool... can't quite get the highlights to look like the 2010 version of ACR (my favorite) with the highlight recovery, but it seems you can have all the noise smoothed while still having detail sharpened. It must be doing some voodoo magic or something!

Also interesting, is that the BMC files in PhotoNinja are 2432 x 1366 pixels, not 2400 x 1350.

Kholi
02-09-2013, 10:15 PM
You might want to try PhotoNinja by Picure Code.

http://www.picturecode.com/index.php

It's an interesting and very high quality raw converter. You can change the debayer method to one that is more suited for cameras with weak AA filters. They also have Noise Ninja built in, which seems to be a great NR tool.

I think it's just awesome that this camera uses an open raw format! Being able to use different programs to get different looks is great and I really do feel that each raw converter has it's own look. You can definitely get similar results from each of them, but there are also times when you get a certain look that just can't be recreated by another converter.

Photo Ninja is definitely one to check out.

I know processing footage through programs made for stills is a huge pain, but it's been fun for me just to see the variation you get from different methods.


I finally got a chance to try this out with a DNG that had a fair amount of moire in it. The subject was a fine pattern (think jeans or backpack), the moire was pretty obvious.

Lightroom, Resolve, and PhotoNinja all look the same to my eyes as far as debayering goes. But someone with a more analytical view on this should do comparisons.

LR4's chroma noise reduction removed a fair amount of the chroma aliasing/moire but still left something to be desired.

PhotoNinja, however, removed damned near one-hundred percent of the chroma aliasing/moire and I sincerely cannot tell if it's impacting overall detail. Like, there's no moire whatsoever. Unfortunately, I can't export the actual DNG or a full res JPEG because I do not have a license, but here are screenshots from PhotoNinja, before and after. his was "test" footage from last November so Moire COULD be improved in the new firmware, I don't know how that would work but:

Before PhotoNinja, DNG straight out of camera, 28/1.8 Canon I think:
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_a.jpeg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_a.png)

After PhotoNinja Noise Ninja Reduction, Chroma all the way to the right, detail slider at 0:
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_b.jpeg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_b.png)

Click either photo for a larger PNG screenshot and judge for yourself.

I can also send this DNG for someone to try chroma reduction in Resolve. If Resolve 9 can do this just with chroma noise reduction* then I think my final issue with this camera is ... well... resolved.




*I understand that this is not a moving set of images, and that may also have an effect on how it works in Resolve 9. I would rather do everything in Resolve, to be honest, as the other software do not export DPX or similar. =[

Kholi
02-09-2013, 10:22 PM
Links fixed, sorry about that.

dustylense
02-09-2013, 10:36 PM
Or.... We can call Mosaic Eng. and have them make a filter and stay in Resolve.

When I first heard the BMC was offering DNG I thought, "Great, I can process in LR which I've processed 10's of thousands of RAW's in". Yeah, for STILLS. I suppose if you had a shot that had moire you could process it in LR. But doing the whole job is LR is out of the question for me. Too slow of a workflow.

However, I am a self described expert of LR and a total wet behind the ears guy in Resolve. In LM, you could use the "local brush" (shortcut is K) which has a moire slider. paint the affected area and then sync the rest of the DNG's up, export as TIFF (with LPM compression to speed it up) and DO NOT APPLY SHARPENING or NOISE reduction and then LM will be a bit faster in the export. Sharpen and NR in your NLE.

Kholi
02-09-2013, 10:41 PM
I think I'm in the majority that says "Sure, but if we don't have to modify the camera, why should we?" If there's another way, won't hurt to find it.

Don't care if it's an extra hour of post processing time, do care if the Mosaic filter a. reduces too much detail and b. compromises color.

There are a lot of things that can change from a filter.

Anyone who's actually up to finding solutions other than the hardware mod (whenever that may come around), this is the thread for that.

dustylense
02-09-2013, 10:59 PM
Done in LR with the local adjustment brush with moire slider at 100. Took 20 secs.

2277
2278
2279
2280

Now on the second shot you will see that the logo got greyed up. This is where you use the local brush mask tool to help on that.

2281

Or THE EASIEST WAY: you could just use the "color" slider under the "detail" section of LM, but that will leave you with a faint pattern of B&W moire (kind of the a Gh2 look). In either case, leave sharpening at zero and NR at zero to speed up the export of the 1000 or so shots you are exporting.
Export as TIFF into a new folder, bring into resolve and resolve will see it as an image sequence, then export to your edit codec of choice.

I'd rather just have a VAF from Mosaic Engineering.

yoclay
02-09-2013, 11:08 PM
You will be able to get rid of the chroma noise, but not the pattern itself.

Kholi
02-09-2013, 11:10 PM
You will be able to get rid of the chroma noise, but not the pattern itself.

Actually not concerned with the aliasing pattern, that's fine. GH2 had aliasing, but very little chroma aliasing/moire. I can live with that. At 3K it's MORE than forgivable to me, but when the color starts to show up in hair or clothes, that's when it's not good.

Of course, if it offends anyone to have aliasing in general, then that is where Mosaic would come in for sure.

dustylense
02-09-2013, 11:25 PM
You will be able to get rid of the chroma noise, but not the pattern itself.
re-read my post. You can get rid of the pattern as well.

PaulDelVecchio
02-09-2013, 11:38 PM
What ever happened to the uprezzing solution in Nuke that got rid of the aliasing, moire, and chroma aliasing? That thread seemed to just die out with no final conclusion.

dustylense
02-09-2013, 11:43 PM
Actually not concerned with the aliasing pattern, that's fine. GH2 had aliasing, but very little chroma aliasing/moire. I can live with that. At 3K it's MORE than forgivable to me, but when the color starts to show up in hair or clothes, that's when it's not good.

Of course, if it offends anyone to have aliasing in general, then that is where Mosaic would come in for sure.
Then if you don't mind the pattern, and can live with the Gh2 look. The best way is to use the "Color" slider under the "Details" section of LR. Put "color" all the way to the right at 100 and set the rest to zero (again to speed up the export).
this is just using the above method.
2282
2283

Kholi
02-09-2013, 11:48 PM
I can still see moire in the bottom image... if you have PhotoNinja, try that.

I like LR4... but, in that area, just the color noise removal on photoNinja literally ripped all of the color moire out. At 100 in LR4, it was still there on the bookbag examples that I posted. If I had a full license I would export a few seconds to see what it does in motion because I feel like it shouldn't be that easy.

My feeling is that you might have missed those stills back a page, I already tried LR4, it wasn't completely satisfactory.

dustylense
02-09-2013, 11:51 PM
I can still see moire in the bottom image... if you have PhotoNinja, try that.

I like LR4... but, in that area, just the color noise removal on photoNinja literally ripped all of the color moire out. At 100 in LR4, it was still there on the bookbag examples that I posted. If I had a full license I would export a few seconds to see what it does in motion because I feel like it shouldn't be that easy.
Thats mostly compression Kholi here on BMCuser. on my monitor, the color moire is completely gone but the patter exists (with using just the color slider under details). It takes all of 2 secs to apply to a shot and get moving along in post. But while in LR, why not primary the shot as well, remove the moire, then move on. Not sure of photo ninja as a RAW converter. But, i'll look at photo ninja if there is a demo version.

Kholi
02-09-2013, 11:52 PM
You might want to try PhotoNinja by Picure Code.

http://www.picturecode.com/index.php

It's an interesting and very high quality raw converter. You can change the debayer method to one that is more suited for cameras with weak AA filters. They also have Noise Ninja built in, which seems to be a great NR tool.

I think it's just awesome that this camera uses an open raw format! Being able to use different programs to get different looks is great and I really do feel that each raw converter has it's own look. You can definitely get similar results from each of them, but there are also times when you get a certain look that just can't be recreated by another converter.

Photo Ninja is definitely one to check out.

I know processing footage through programs made for stills is a huge pain, but it's been fun for me just to see the variation you get from different methods.

=[ First page of the thread, man. Demo link right there, from Andrew.

CaptainHook
02-09-2013, 11:59 PM
I can also send this DNG for someone to try chroma reduction in Resolve. If Resolve 9 can do this just with chroma noise reduction* then I think my final issue with this camera is ... well... resolved.

Send it through to me and i will try the NR in Resolve and in Neat Video. :)

Kholi
02-10-2013, 12:02 AM
Send it through to me and i will try the NR in Resolve and in Neat Video. :)

Seenntttt.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 12:05 AM
Just played with the photo ninja Kholi. Program stinks, sorry. Way to slow. What is happening is that on top of the demosaic of the file, the program is applying their noise ninja to the image. that will take FOREVER to process say a 2500 frame shot. You can acheive the save thing if not better if you start touching the "luminance" slider in LM. But again, every single slider will add to the amount of time exporting.

I'll play with it some more, on top of trying out capture one and aperture as I have both of those too. Too me, LR is the fastest and easiest to handle the BMC DNG's. Why, Because Abode created the DNG.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 12:13 AM
Just played with the photo ninja Kholi. Program stinks, sorry. Way to slow. What is happening is that on top of the demosaic of the file, the program is applying their noise ninja to the image. that will take FOREVER to process say a 2500 frame shot. You can acheive the save thing if not better if you start touching the "luminance" slider in LM. But again, every single slider will add to the amount of time exporting.

I'll play with it some more, on top of trying out capture one and aperture as I have both of those too. Too me, LR is the fastest and easiest to handle the BMC DNG's. Why, Because Abode created the DNG.

Sometimes, I'm not even sure we're in the same thread. Honestly.

I'm not commenting on what program is better. I'm sure the multi-million dollar app that is Lightroom is better overall, from GUI to whatever. I am commenting on how Noise Ninja handled the chroma moire on the bag image that I posted, and it did a better job in less time time than Lightroom 4 maxed out. Am I losing something in translation? It seems very easy to understand, but here is the point (broken down):

How does Chroma Noise Reduction affect a DNG "contaminated" with moire. Right now the comparison is between LR4, PhotoNinja (suggested by Andrew), and now thanks to Cap'n Hook R9 and Neat Video. I've already tried Lightroom, it doesn't get rid of it completely.

I don't plan on processing through ANY OF THESE APPLICATIONS as I stated several posts ago, if R9 does the same thing.

Hopefully, that helps to clear things up.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 12:39 AM
Sometimes, I'm not even sure we're in the same thread. Honestly.

I'm not commenting on what program is better. I'm sure the multi-million dollar app that is Lightroom is better overall, from GUI to whatever. I am commenting on how Noise Ninja handled the chroma moire on the bag image that I posted, and it did a better job in less time time than Lightroom 4 maxed out. Am I losing something in translation? It seems very easy to understand, but here is the point (broken down):

How does Chroma Noise Reduction affect a DNG "contaminated" with moire. Right now the comparison is between LR4, PhotoNinja (suggested by Andrew), and now thanks to Cap'n Hook R9 and Neat Video. I've already tried Lightroom, it doesn't get rid of it completely.

I don't plan on processing through ANY OF THESE APPLICATIONS as I stated several posts ago, if R9 does the same thing.

Hopefully, that helps to clear things up.

Kholi, were on the same thread. Calm down. Again, what and why I told you of how your are seeing results in Photo Ninja is because it's applying NOISE NINJA (a very old photo noise reduction plug) to the FILE, on top of the demosiac of the DNG. Go ahead, de-click NOISE NINJA 3.0 the the program.
What Andrew and Hook are doing is applying basically the same thing, a NOISE REDUCER. Neat video, great app, takes FOREVER TO RENDER as do ALL NOISE REDUCERS.

I agree with you Kholi, it's not about what program is better. But what you are not seeing is what program is EFFICIENT.

I've been handling RAW and de before you got to LA, Georgia. Look up the Betterlight back.

As do I, I do not intend to use LM, cap one or any of them to handle MOVING dng's. Resolve is MUCH faster of a workflow. But I don't want to rely on Neat Video either as that is the slowest of slow to render. We're looking for a moire' solution. THe VAF is the best solution with LR or Cap One behind that. You can always post sharpen a VAF'ed image.

As for stills converters I already gave you 2 ways in LR. One to eliminate the color moire', and another to eliminate the pattern of moire' . all in a very fast method using LR. YES, I said eliminate the PATTERN, so that is not just grey chroma free moire but luminance free moire'.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 12:48 AM
Kholi, were on the same thread. Calm down. Again, what and why I told you of how your are seeing results in Photo Ninja is because it's applying NOISE NINJA (a very old photo noise reduction plug) to the FILE, on top of the demosiac of the DNG. Go ahead, de-click NOISE NINJA 3.0 the the program.
What Andrew and Hook are doing is applying basically the same thing, a NOISE REDUCER. Neat video, great app, takes FOREVER TO RENDER as do ALL NOISE REDUCERS.




After PhotoNinja Noise Ninja Reduction, Chroma all the way to the right, detail slider at 0:
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_b.jpeg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/rs/blackmagic_Moire_b.png)

Click either photo for a larger PNG screenshot and judge for yourself.

I can also send this DNG for someone to try chroma reduction in Resolve.

I thought this entire thread was about noise reduction to remove chroma aliasing/moire in either application to begin with? =[ What is going on? Am I eating too much Del Taco or am I really getting old? Can someone help me decipher where the miscommunication is?

That's exactly what I slammed the Noise Ninja slider to 100... I don't know how to be more clear about this. Sorry, man.


We're looking for a moire' solution. THe VAF is the best solution with LR or Cap One behind that. You can always post sharpen a VAF'ed image.

Okay, great, that's the solution you want. Send more emails, in the meantime at least a few of us will see where this goes.

CaptainHook
02-10-2013, 12:53 AM
Here are my results, as far as i can tell there is no way to isolate Resolve NR to just chroma.. the controls are crude as you can see here:

(Bottom 3 controls)

http://f.cl.ly/items/0D1w1v450K2z1t2S1C2H/NR%20in%20Resolve.jpg

This was my process for the following images:

• Open DNG in Resolve, load my Config Preset which makes all DNG's use BMDFilm, do a quick one node correction to restore contrast (i didn't push the blacks very deep on purpose), saturation, and tweak WB/Tint.

• Export from Resolve as DPX (convert to JPG in photoshop)

• Apply Resolve NR and export as 16bit Tif (convert to JPG in photoshop)

• Take DPX (with no NR) into Premiere and add Neat Video. I did an auto profile which grabbed the grey area on left on frame.. i "fine-tuned" the profile by selecting the edge along the top of the bag where the chroma noise seems most obvious to me and pushed up the chroma noise controls in Neat video to 100 and reduced the luminance control to 0.

• Export as 16bit Tif and convert to JPG in Photoshop.


My DNG conversion from Resolve (No NR):

http://f.cl.ly/items/1x193J0k1Z0g3q3Y2T0L/00090000_NoNR_940.jpg

Large: http://f.cl.ly/items/142S3I1a0S2o3a282D0E/00090000_NoNR.jpg

NR from Resolve (i'm not sure i would ever use this for anything.. looks like the "Portraiture" plugin for Photoshop which makes skin look like plastic to me.. but to be fair i don't have much experience with it, but the controls are obviously limited, might be useful combining with keys etc):

http://f.cl.ly/items/1Q2o330M0K2q2I2O391D/00090000_ResolveNR_940.jpg

Large: http://f.cl.ly/items/0S2x1g0K2P0B313L0f1y/00090000_ResolveNR.jpg

And the NR from Neat Video:

http://f.cl.ly/items/2W023D3Z3Q0J3R3b1k24/00090000_NeatVideo_940.jpg

Large: http://f.cl.ly/items/0a232s3N3Q300l1g323d/00090000_NeatVideo.jpg

I don't think Neat Video did too badly.. i wasn't really sure how it would do as i've never used it for this purpose. Maybe it's not as good as Noise Ninja but i would be interested to see both in Motion. Personally i think Neat Video is good to have, get the Premiere version as i found out the hard way that the After Effects version renders at least 4x slower (it's an after effects problem rather than the plugin) as i own both. Hope that helps Kholi :)

Kholi
02-10-2013, 12:57 AM
I don't think Neat Video did too badly.. i was really sure how it would do as i've never used it for this purpose. Maybe it's not as good as Noise Ninja but i would be interested to see both in Motion. Personally i think Neat Video is good to have, get the Premiere version as i found out the hard way that the After Effects version renders at least 4x slower (it's an after effects problem rather than the plugin) as i own both. Hope that helps Kholi :)

Thanks for that, Cap. That's literally what I needed to see. I'm curious about what it would do in motion as well, but I would also want to test various different patterns and see if I can recreate the "oil slick" moire that we got on one shot a few months ago.

CaptainHook
02-10-2013, 12:58 AM
No probs, just let me know if you've got any more frames or a sequence you want me to test. :)

dustylense
02-10-2013, 12:59 AM
I thought this entire thread was about noise reduction to remove chroma aliasing/moire in either application to begin with? =[ What is going on? Am I eating too much Del Taco or am I really getting old? Can someone help me decipher where the miscommunication is?

That's exactly what I slammed the Noise Ninja slider to 100... I don't know how to be anymore clear about this. Sorry, man.



Okay, great, that's the solution you want. Send more emails, in the meantime at least a few of us will see where this goes.
Moire is not noise. Its a fixed bayer pattern of the sensors inability to resolve luminance and chroma pattern. Not signal noise. I just showed you how to reduce WITHOUT any NOISE reduction.

See where it goes as much as you want. Use neat video all you want. the LR "quick" method I posted is about as easy as it gets.
I'm starting to think Kholi, that you are the one that is confused. Again, look up the Betterlight back. Look up Phase one backs. Look up Hassy backs. I've used them all long before you probably ever understood or heard of RAW imaging. I've conquered many RAW workflows and have run into Moire' before you probably even picked a camera up dude.

If anyone is combative Kholi, in this thread... It is you. I told you how and why Photo Ninja is reducing the chroma moire'. It's their ancient old plug in called Noise Ninja, which is now on V3 of the plug. Go ahead, go back into Photo ninja and "UNCLICK" the Noise ninja tab box and see what happens. Then click it again, and e-mail them for the two week trial license. THEN, export a shot with 4500 frames and TIME IT. Then, YOU will UNDERSTAND what I am TALKING about.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 01:07 AM
Moire is not noise. Its a fixed bayer pattern of the sensors inability to resolve luminance and chroma pattern. Not signal noise. I just showed you how to reduce WITHOUT any NOISE reduction.

See where it goes as much as you want. Use neat video all you want. the LR "quick" method I posted is about as easy as it gets.
I'm starting to think Kholi, that you are the one that is confused. Again, look up the Betterlight back. Look up Phase one backs. Look up Hassy backs. I've used them all long before you probably ever understood or heard of RAW imaging. I've conquered many RAW workflows and have run into Moire' before you probably even picked a camera up dude.

If anyone is combative Kholi, in this thread... It is you. I told you how and why Photo Ninja is reducing the chroma moire'. It's their ancient old plug in called Noise Ninja, which is now on V3 of the plug. Go ahead, go back into Photo ninja and "UNCLICK" the Noise ninja tab box and see what happens. Then click it again, and e-mail them for the two week trial license. THEN, export a shot with 4500 frames and TIME IT. Then, YOU will UNDERSTAND what I am TALKING about.

Ah, now I get what this is about. You want to "teach" me something. You have succeeded, but not the lesson that you were going for. But, again, so we're very clear:


Can you isolate only color noise in Resolve 9 or is it an all in one?

After reading that thread where the guy saw moire in R9 but not LR4, I tried LR4 on a shot with moire in it and it the color noise reduction killed the minor amounts in hair that usually bug the crap out of me.



That is the first post in the thread. I know exactly what Moire and Aliasing comes from, it has no baring on what this thread is about. I saw a post from another user about his LR4 vs R9 experience, he didn't realize that LR4 had filtered out the color aliasing/moire in his footage, because it's defaulted. It sincerely doesn't matter WHAT or WHY, it only matters that it WORKS.

The time doesn't matter, you've clearly never actually sat down with 5K R3Ds and no Rocket, round tripping. But, I understand the point-and-shoot nature of some jobs, and the background of pre-processed images as well. In those environments people expect things to happen on the spot. Either which way.

So, again, to be clear: I think we all understood what was going on from the beginning, which is why Andrew etc. offered up the suggestions. This thread is about that circumstance, and how it can be used to correct a flaw right now, not later.

At the moment, it's becoming another useless thread where one or two people recount the days of shooting RAW stills. Thanks for that.

CaptainHook
02-10-2013, 01:21 AM
If you want an idea of render time for Neat Video, on my system in Premiere it seems to take about 3-4 times the length of the program - which is based off roughly 3-minute-long music videos in H264 with Neat Video applied to every frame taking roughly 10-12 minutes to render. Not that bad. A less compressed codec should be quicker (i still need to test). A feature length you might want to leave to render over night, but i doubt you'd be applying it globally and instead just be fixing necessary frames etc.. and i'm not sure how this would compare to the speed of say Noise Ninja in PhotoNinja (although i would like to know if someone has an idea??).

Of course this single frame in Neat Video seemed to happen instantly and as soon as i pressed export.

RyGuy
02-10-2013, 04:42 AM
Photo Ninja is looking like a very interesting option for RAW post. My guess on why it is handling moire so well is due to how it deals with CA. Check out example #2 in the link below. It corrects CA before debayering, which leads to a cleaner rendered image.

http://www.picturecode.com/showcase/ca.php

RobertJ
02-10-2013, 08:19 AM
Just read this, regarding the Noise Ninja plugin for Photoshop:

"Customer support for Noise Ninja is still available by email -- see the Support page (http://www.picturecode.com/support.php). However, we will not be making further updates to the software. Photo Ninja includes better noise reduction technology, and we will providing a Photoshop plug-in for Photo Ninja in the upcoming V1.1 release."

A PS plugin for Photo Ninja. Sounds cool.

Andrew
02-10-2013, 01:43 PM
PhotoNinja is pretty cool... can't quite get the highlights to look like the 2010 version of ACR (my favorite) with the highlight recovery, but it seems you can have all the noise smoothed while still having detail sharpened. It must be doing some voodoo magic or something!

Also interesting, is that the BMC files in PhotoNinja are 2432 x 1366 pixels, not 2400 x 1350.

I totally agree with you about the highlights. PhotoNinja doesn't handle them very well.

I've heard that many raw converters will crop the image slightly to get a more accurate debayer. That way they're not using black pixels to figure out what colors the edge pixels are. Sounds good, but I've seen a couple programs that give the full resolution and it looks fine to me. I know it's a small difference, but I want all of the pixels! I wouldn't mind at least having the choice.

Are you guys also using the enhanced(slower) Demosaic method in PhotoNinja?

Kholi
02-10-2013, 01:59 PM
I totally agree with you about the highlights. PhotoNinja doesn't handle them very well.

I've heard that many raw converters will crop the image slightly to get a more accurate debayer. That way they're not using black pixels to figure out what colors the edge pixels are. Sounds good, but I've seen a couple programs that give the full resolution and it looks fine to me. I know it's a small difference, but I want all of the pixels! I wouldn't mind at least having the choice.

Are you guys also using the enhanced(slower) Demosaic method in PhotoNinja?

I tried the enhanced, couldn't see a difference but again, I think someone that really knows what to look for should try it. The pattern on the backpack is really fine, and I do know for sure that at least it still remains the exact same pattern in the PhotoNinja image after the chroma noise reduction. That was for a still, not motion, again.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 02:12 PM
I tried the enhanced, couldn't see a difference but again, I think someone that really knows what to look for should try it. The pattern on the backpack is really fine, and I do know for sure that at least it still remains the exact same pattern in the PhotoNinja image after the chroma noise reduction. That was for a still, not motion, again.

Post the backpack DNG file for download Kholi. Or better yet, shoot a more complex moire scene or a few of them that multiple users can mess around with and post back here for results.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 02:26 PM
If you want an idea of render time for Neat Video, on my system in Premiere it seems to take about 3-4 times the length of the program - which is based off roughly 3-minute-long music videos in H264 with Neat Video applied to every frame taking roughly 10-12 minutes to render. Not that bad. A less compressed codec should be quicker (i still need to test). A feature length you might want to leave to render over night, but i doubt you'd be applying it globally and instead just be fixing necessary frames etc.. and i'm not sure how this would compare to the speed of say Noise Ninja in PhotoNinja (although i would like to know if someone has an idea??).

Of course this single frame in Neat Video seemed to happen instantly and as soon as i pressed export.

I'm waiting to hear back from BMD about R9 being capable of doing any of this kind of work. But, I will probably email for a trial license and explore more. Problem is that I don't have a camera and still have to go and grab someone else's to do tests. =P You're right, however, that you would only have to do certain shots. In the case of say an interview where the tighter camera's getting a lot of moire, then that camera might have to be fixed before color, but after a final cut.

It sounds like Neat Video's render times have improved! Even still, cheap, good, fast... =X Pick two, right?

Andrew
02-10-2013, 02:30 PM
Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion? It would seem to be a fool's errand by the time you start using a brush mask to create an exact outline that needs to be tracked perfectly to the image. It does make you really appreciate the power of Resolve though, right?

I've also found that the moire brush at 100 desaturates the image too much. You might want to try a lower setting. In your example the whole right side of the image seems to be monochrome after your adjustment.

The reality is that LR was made for stills, and your methods for processing stills in it might not be the most practical when dealing with motion. Kholi seems to be in an experimental and open minded mood, trying to find the best possible way to process his images even if it's not the fastest possible method. Striving for excellence in a field you're passionate about is something I have truckloads of respect for.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 02:40 PM
Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion? It would seem to be a fool's errand by the time you start using a brush mask to create an exact outline that needs to be tracked perfectly to the image. It does make you really appreciate the power of Resolve though, right?

I've also found that the moire brush at 100 desaturates the image too much. You might want to try a lower setting. In your example the whole right side of the image seems to be monochrome after your adjustment.

The reality is that LR was made for stills, and your methods for processing stills in it might not be the most practical when dealing with motion. Kholi seems to be in an experimental and open minded mood, trying to find the best possible way to process his images even if it's not the fastest possible method. Striving for excellence in a field you're passionate about is something I have truckloads of respect for.

I already did a test last night were the moire shows up like it typically does, for a second or two. I tested on a floor dolly shot. Just found the frames that had moire and did brushes for that set of frames. Copy, sync, copy sync. Took 5 minutes to do the work but like I said, any of these processes are going to take a while to export into a tiff sequence.
If on a static scene, pretty darn simple.

I only mentioned brush stocke at 100, so that first time users see it transform. Of course slide to what the shot needs. My shot was brush at 65 and the color slider at 100. No physical noise reduction used at all like Neatvideo.

I also played with Photo Ninja some more. Sorry guys, It's a POS. Just like their plug ins were. You can't even apply a curve. No curve, no dice...You can't even go linear...

Andrew
02-10-2013, 03:05 PM
I also played with Photo Ninja some more. Sorry guys, It's a POS.

It's comments like this that lead me to not value your opinion much.

You mean after playing around with it for a few minutes you find it to not be nearly as good as the app you've used for years? Shocking!

Nobody's saying it's a LR replacement, but I am saying that it can produce great results! Even better than LR for some shots imo. That's my approach to it. I'm looking for what it does extremely well and not looking just for it's faults. I think you'll find it could be a useful addition to your raw workflow (especially stills) if you try that approach. I've read many reviews of the app by professional photographers and that's the conclusion many of them come to.

It's a V1 app by a small company. Nobody's expecting it to blow the giant out of the water.

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 03:12 PM
Dustylense, I think you need to keep in mind that you can't keyframe brushstrokes in LR. Some of your examples work really well for a still or locked off tripod shot, but how do you plan to apply them to motion?

You can apply your Lightroom brush adjustments to your footage. You just have to import into After Effects. Where you can then apply NeatVideo also if you so choose.


https://vimeo.com/53351045

Andrew
02-10-2013, 03:35 PM
Thanks Jonathan. I've watched that video before and he mentions that the brushes and graduated filters will copy over, but you can't animate them. If you know of a way to keyframe the ACR controls in AE, then please share. That would be great!

I guess you could create multiple layers of the same footage but processed differently through ACR. Say one for the foreground and one for the sky and then blend them using masks in AE. It would be pretty easy to animate them using the AE tools.

Still, no Resolve tracker though. That thing is awesome! There's no getting around it. Resolve is the king for this type of work.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 03:36 PM
You can apply your Lightroom brush adjustments to your footage. You just have to import into After Effects. Where you can then apply NeatVideo also if you so choose.


https://vimeo.com/53351045

Thanks for the video, Jon.

He says that the brush won't animate, I don't have experience with moving LR to AE, does that mean that you basically have to do everything in LR and then you can finish in AE?

Ideally, although this isn't the "right" way to do it, it would be a one click thing and you wouldn't use any sort of brush or manual adjustment, as it is pretty impractical for a standardized workflow. When you get into brushes, painting, etc. that's touch-up/beauty and in some instances vfx, and likely should be done with a moving image, at the end of the pipeline when color's all done.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 03:39 PM
It's comments like this that lead me to not value your opinion much.

You mean after playing around with it for a few minutes you find it to not be nearly as good as the app you've used for years? Shocking!

Nobody's saying it's a LR replacement, but I am saying that it can produce great results! Even better than LR for some shots imo. That's my approach to it. I'm looking for what it does extremely well and not looking just for it's faults. I think you'll find it could be a useful addition to your raw workflow (especially stills) if you try that approach. I've read many reviews of the app by professional photographers and that's the conclusion many of them come to.

It's a V1 app by a small company. Nobody's expecting it to blow the giant out of the water.

I spent 1 1/2 hours digesting Photo Ninja dude, right up against LR. again, NO curve, NO linear, the shadow recovery tool is just applying a tone map as well as the highlight recovery. It's TONE MAPPING. All it would take is for you and I to sit down for 5 minutes and I'd show you WHY Photo ninja is garbage.
Not saying this to you or anyone here. Photo Ninja is for people that can't or don't want to understand converting RAW, as the program is doing ALL SORTS of auto stuff for you before you even begin working on an image. It's like sticking a point n' shoot in fireworks scene profile.

Outside of my own stills shooting studio and video stuff, I do a TON of DIT work for photographers I've know for a very long time. IF I sat down and said I was going to use Photo Ninja on their campaign, they would kick me right out the door just by seeing there are NO curves, NO linear space.

Use what you want. Try and get rid of moire however you want. Honestly, I sitting here laughing that you are including Neat video in the process, when you don't have to.


So now, I'm finished in this thread as I "HAVE" more to share and in a quicker, easier, and more effective way. But I'll keep it to myself.

-been editing RAW digital images since the darn concept was invented......

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 03:41 PM
While we may be working with motion, the first thing to remember is you are working in RAW. Locking off sections of footage to apply your plugins is the place for After Effects and it's layer and tracking functionality. But if you have a static shot or a shot where talent will not walk in front if the offending area. Why not just apply your noise reduction to the offending area before you grade. That's what RAW is for.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 03:49 PM
While we may be working with motion, the first thing to remember is you are working in RAW. Locking off sections of footage to apply your plugins is the place for After Effects and it's layer and tracking functionality. But if you have a static shot or a shot where talent will not walk in front if the offending area. Why not just apply your noise reduction to the offending area before you grade. That's what RAW is for.

There are many reasons not to do it before, and not to do it after. It's dependent on the situation. For most cases, I would do it before anyway, and I think what Andrew is trying to point out is that you don't want to mess with trying to track things in programs that aren't meant for the task.

The benefit of PhotoNinja was a simple slider adjustment would do the trick, and there's no tracking involved. The downside to using it, of course, is having second generation TIFFs... which sounds terrifying to me. >.<

In the end, I really don't care WHAT application does it, as long as it works. Finishing a project at a certain level typically requires the use of all kinds of apps, some which are free crappy apps that do one task REALLY freakin' well, and some that are very expensive and do a task really well. That's how this stuff works.

Also, Jon, I am not saying you don't know this already. Just sort of talking and hoping to get the conversation back on track after being severely derailed. xD Thanks for posting the AE video.

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 03:59 PM
Your adjustments in LightRoom are on the CinemaDNG files. Theo applies his changes to the CinemaDNG files by adding metadata to a sidecar associated with the footage. You import the CinemaDNG files into After Effects. No destuctive application to CinemaDNG, No conversion to TIFF, a RAW workflow. There is no tracking involved making a RAW adjustment to a CinemaDNG file in Lightroom, Photoshop, or After Effects.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 04:02 PM
Your adjustments in LightRoom are on the CinemaDNG files. Theo applies his changes to the CinemaDNG files by adding metadata to a sidecar associated with the footage. You import the CinemaDNG files into After Effects. No destuctive application to CinemaDNG, No conversion to TIFF, a RAW workflow. There is no tracking involved making a RAW adjustment to a CinemaDNG file in Lightroom, Photoshop, or After Effects.

By tracking I mean on a moving shot, where you want to clean moire up (for instance, a zoom in and out during a pan on an interview, a common shot) how do you deal with that between Lightroom and AE? Which application do you track your corrections in?

I did forget that between those applications you get to remain raw, so that's a benefit for sure.

Andrew
02-10-2013, 04:06 PM
-been editing RAW digital images since the darn concept was invented......

Come on now, you're being too modest. Surely you mean since you invented it. ;)

Again, just because PhotoNinja isn't the top dog, doesn't mean it's worthless. I have one image that I've spent quite a bit of time with in LR and PhotoNinja, and while I like the results from LR, the results from PhotoNinja are better and more natural despite not having curves adjustments. I've tried everything in LR to try to match it, but it's not quite there. This isn't the case with every image, but nonetheless it's a useful tool to have available.

That's fine if you've decided not to post anymore in this thread or share your golden nuggets for workflow and PP techniques. You can take your ball and go home, but feel free to stick around if you want.

CaptainHook
02-10-2013, 04:07 PM
It sounds like Neat Video's render times have improved! Even still, cheap, good, fast... =X Pick two, right?

Haha, indeed.
I think a few versions ago NeatVideo added Cuda acceleration, and from inside the plugin you can run a performance test that will figure out the best way to use the most of your hardware. For me it chose 7 (out of 8) available processors (i7) combined with my GTX580 as being the fastest option. I imagine that with a cubix box loaded with 4 cards it would fly. :)

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 04:08 PM
a zoom in and out during a pan on an interview, a common shot) how do you deal with that between Lightroom and AE?

Once it is in After Effects, plugin applications, i.e. NeatVideo, can be tracked there, if needed.

from After Effects Help

"With motion tracking, you can track the movement of an object and then apply the tracking data for that movement to another object—such as another layer or an effect control point—to create compositions in which images and effects follow the motion."

Think separate layer with curve applied only to the sky in a .psd file in Photoshop.

Andrew
02-10-2013, 04:13 PM
In the end, I really don't care WHAT application does it, as long as it works. Finishing a project at a certain level typically requires the use of all kinds of apps, some which are free crappy apps that do one task REALLY freakin' well, and some that are very expensive and do a task really well. That's how this stuff works.



This is how I approach it. If you need super fast turnaround, then maybe it's not the right method, but I figure it's worth knowing the best way first even if it requires multiple programs and more time. From there you've got a better base of knowledge to make the best decisions depending on your circumstances.

John Brawley
02-10-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm waiting to hear back from BMD about R9 being capable of doing any of this kind of work. But, I will probably email for a trial license and explore more. Problem is that I don't have a camera and still have to go and grab someone else's to do tests. =P You're right, however, that you would only have to do certain shots. In the case of say an interview where the tighter camera's getting a lot of moire, then that camera might have to be fixed before color, but after a final cut.

It sounds like Neat Video's render times have improved! Even still, cheap, good, fast... =X Pick two, right?

I think you'll find the Resolve team are already working on this....

http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?2585-Resolve-vs-Adobe-Photoshop&p=47130&viewfull=1#post47130

jb

Kholi
02-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Once it is in After Effects, plugin applications, i.e. NeatVideo, can be tracked there, if needed.

from After Effects Help

"With motion tracking, you can track the movement of an object and then apply the tracking data for that movement to another object—such as another layer or an effect control point—to create compositions in which images and effects follow the motion."

Well, see, I know After Effects or know how it works. I think I'm just confused by the idea that you would do anything more than just a slider adjustment in LR4, then do everything else in AE (finishing what LR4 can't do with one simple adjustment slider), not going in frame by frame and tweaking with a brush, but just a slider, then do your tracking/beauty/finishing in AE.

If that's what you mean, then cool. That's another way to do it, and that's what I assumed you would have to do. But, it seemed like the suggested process was "do brush adjustments frame by frame in LR4 then go into AE...." etc. That would not be ideal, of course.



This is how I approach it. If you need super fast turnaround, then maybe it's not the right method, but I figure it's worth knowing the best way first even if it requires multiple programs and more time. From there you've got a better base of knowledge to make the best decisions depending on your circumstances.

Indeed. It's not uncommon at all, but I do suppose that say for corporate videos it's not so much.


I think you'll find the Resolve team are already working on this....

http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?2585-Resolve-vs-Adobe-Photoshop&p=47130&viewfull=1#post47130

jb

Sawr that thread, glad that Peter C. is looking out for the R9 Community! =P He actually has my backpack dng, and I hope that it helps in some minor way to get a line on what we can do in R9. Likely, Mosaic will create an OLPF, but it's great to have a software option so the camera can go untouched. Personally, I certainly do not mind spending slightly more rendering time, especially if I only have to stay in the badassery that is Resolve. >:0

I am well aware that the moire doesn't bother some people, but I'm pretty sure it will literally bite through a few people's arms when it does show up. Can't hurt to start finding some sort of solution to save butts in the meantime.

John Brawley
02-10-2013, 04:31 PM
Sawr that thread, glad that Peter C. is looking out for the R9 Community! =P


You do know he's the product manager for Resolve right ??

jb

Kholi
02-10-2013, 04:33 PM
You do know he's the product manager for Resolve right ??

jb

Yeah, but it's rare for Product Managers to interact with forum communities. That's more what I meant. I feel like up until Jan Critterdan and DVXuser, that literally never happened. It is great to be able to interact with guys like Kristian and Peter, etc. on the forums. It just kind of sucks that they also have to see the icky side of these things.

Edit: And you never, almost NEVER see Canon interacting. I think Sony does now, on their own forums. Canon? Closed book. There are guys in the Canon sub forums talking about a firmware update from Canon that changed the way the camera behaves as far as color goes... and there isn't ANYTHING documented about it. No acknowledgement, one of the primary Canon Enthusiasts did his own digging on it.

So that's what I meant, it's cool to see him here and around and engaged.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 04:36 PM
Took me ten minutes using lightroom. No noise reducers like Neat Video.

Here is the dropbox (download it). https://www.dropbox.com/s/64c0aaekf4aija5/Moire%20remove%20%281920%20x%201080%29.m4v

Here is the reference frame:
2292

Andrew
02-10-2013, 04:42 PM
Looks good Dustylense. There is a glitch in there where the moire shows up for awhile and then disappears again. This wouldn't have happened if you used a whole frame solution like Kholi did with PhotoNinja, or if you were in an app designed for motion where you could animate a mask and easily playback your clip.

This is exactly why we're looking for other methods to add to the toolkit.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 04:45 PM
LOL, fell right into my trap Andrew. Did it on purpose so that you could see that not only did I remove the color moire, but I removed the luminance moire as well. Took those frames that you "think" is the glitch and did some fun stuff.

Have a nice day....

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 04:49 PM
"do brush adjustments frame by frame in LR4 then go into AE...." etc. That would not be ideal, of course.

Yes, there is this conversation about making adjustments in LightRoom and exporting to TIFFs to make adjustments in Photoshop with plugins or using plugins in LR. I am speaking of making RAW adjustments and then sending to After Effects and then to Premiere Pro for editing. After Effects is a really well supported app by third parties. And Adobe created the CinemaDNG format to be used this way, you just get the benefit of making RAW adjustments in LR with this workflow. Something Resolve doesn't allow you.

Kholi
02-10-2013, 04:51 PM
Yes, there is this conversation about making adjustments in LightRoom and exporting to TIFFs to make adjustments in Photoshop with plugins or using plugins in LR. I am speaking of making RAW adjustments and then sending to After Effects and then to Premiere Pro for editing. After Effects is a really well supported app by third parties. And Adobe created the CinemaDNG format to be used this way, you just get the benefit of making RAW adjustments in LR with this workflow. Something Resolve doesn't allow you.

I really do wish that R9 could see what LR4 did with the DNGs. That would be pretty sick, and add another layer of usability to everything. I guess maybe one day!

But you are right about that, DNGs and Adobe (of course) really do play well together.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 05:00 PM
Funny thing is I used nothing but LR and then brought into Resolve to export the Tiff sequence to Prores. No AE, no Neatvideo, no noise reduction, no tracker. Took 15 minutes total for the whole process.

Then, like I said. I spent another hour last night finding out an even BETTER, more EFFECTIVE, and faster way. cut the time down to maybe 7 or 8 minutes. That process will stay with me due to the tone of this thread. Can't share everything. Some things stay secret from this point forward.....

-Are we not entertained!!!!!

Andrew
02-10-2013, 05:04 PM
LOL, fell right into my trap Andrew. Did it on purpose so that you could see that not only did I remove the color moire, but I removed the luminance moire as well. Took those frames that you "think" is the glitch and did some fun stuff.

Have a nice day....

I see, the first clip is completely untouched then? It would make sense as the camera pushes forward for moire to happen at just the right distance. I didn't realize it was a before and after. Sorry.

And by the way, I'm not the one saying there is only one right way to take care of this sort of stuff. I used LR brushes to fix moire that appeared in my Big Sur footage. I'm not knocking it. I'm also not saying that my way is the very very best and anyone trying anything else needs to learn a lesson.

Kholi got it right a few pages back, you seem very interested in teaching lessons instead of sharing in a positive method. You've definitely taught me something today.

Andrew
02-10-2013, 05:09 PM
That process will stay with me due to the tone of this thread. Can't share everything. Some things stay secret from this point forward.....

-Are we not entertained!!!!!

You showed us. Next time we'll be sure to praise you like you (think you) deserve in hopes that you will release your secrets and vast knowledge.

To everyone else,

Sorry, not sure why I chose to engage in this today. I'll try to do better in the future.

dustylense
02-10-2013, 05:11 PM
ANd now the lesson is over on my end.
In the time you guys take to render out of Neat video, I'm done fixing the shot and it's in the timeline edited into the project. A near 100% removal of all moire, both color and luma. No blurring, and detail remains....

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 06:23 PM
I really do wish that R9 could see what LR4 did with the DNGs.

Perhaps, Blackmagic will design their own RAW converter to work with Resolve. But, to me, this whole project screams shoehorn effort. Nothing was designed with interoperability in mind. BM has to support a lot of cameras, cinema projects, and product lines. And now their own camera. Can only hope they commit enough resources to make a complete solution and not just put out a product to funnel people into their other revenue streams.

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 07:33 PM
Funny thing is I used nothing but LR and then brought into Resolve to export the Tiff sequence to Prores.

-Are we not entertained!!!!!

But, if you are intent on throwing the power and color science of working with CinemaDNG away in favor of exporting to TIFFs. I recommend my secret weapon in Photoshop. It has a free demo.

Imagenomics Noiseware (http://imagenomic.com/nw.aspx)


http://youtu.be/LrX1LIGhdb8

If you need a plugin for Lightroom, I have heard good things about Nik Software's Dfine 2.0 (http://www.niksoftware.com/dfine/usa/entry.php)

dustylense
02-10-2013, 07:40 PM
But, if you are intent on throwing the power and color science of working with CinemaDNG away in favor of exporting to TIFFs. I recommend my secret weapon in Photoshop. It has a plugin for Lightroom and a free demo to boot.

Imagenomics Noiseware (http://imagenomic.com/nw.aspx)
Why? Is not a 16 bit TIFF after primary grading in LR enough? But I will look at your solution :-)

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 07:49 PM
Time code, Track Numbers, Key Alignment Grid. See below for CinemaDNG technical specifications

CinemaDNG - Image Data Format Specification PDF (Adobe Labs) (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/cinemadng/pdfs/CinemaDNG_Format_Specification_v1_1.pdf)

Oh yeah, always remember kids, compression is EVIL.

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 10:52 PM
In LM, you could use the "local brush" (shortcut is K) which has a moire slider. paint the affected area and then sync the rest of the DNG's up

Color Noise cannot be removed with the Adjustment Brush only Luminance Noise. You have to paint the entire frame with Color Noise Reduction and then use the negative adjustment brush to remove your adjustment from everything you don't want adjusted. Do that to your frame and then sync to the rest of the DNGs

dustylense
02-10-2013, 11:28 PM
Color Noise cannot be removed with the Adjustment Brush only Luminance Noise. You have to paint the entire frame with Color Noise Reduction and then use the negative adjustment brush to remove your adjustment from everything you don't want adjusted. Do that to your frame and then sync to the rest of the DNGs

Why don't you download the dropbox example I posted.

Moire is not signal noise.

Jon7athan
02-10-2013, 11:34 PM
Why don't you upload the DNGs to your folder.

PaulDelVecchio
02-14-2013, 01:13 AM
Can you isolate only color noise in Resolve 9 or is it an all in one?

After reading that thread where the guy saw moire in R9 but not LR4, I tried LR4 on a shot with moire in it and it the color noise reduction killed the minor amounts in hair that usually bug the crap out of me.

Yes, you can isolate only color noise in Resolve 9. It takes a few extra steps but it can be done and since I got my camera, I've been doing it on shots with great success without losing sharpness in the luminance. Do you have a clip with moire or something I can use? I guess I could go shoot something too, but I can't seem to get my camera to moire with anything at my office.

Abstrak
02-14-2013, 03:01 PM
Yes, you can isolate only color noise in Resolve 9. It takes a few extra steps but it can be done and since I got my camera, I've been doing it on shots with great success without losing sharpness in the luminance. Do you have a clip with moire or something I can use? I guess I could go shoot something too, but I can't seem to get my camera to moire with anything at my office.


Do you have any chairs with a mesh backing? Usually anything mesh is good for producing moire.

PaulDelVecchio
02-15-2013, 12:46 AM
I made a video and blog post about removing chroma noise only from BMCC footage without losing much (if any) detail. It's a simple node tree. The technique was originally for sharpening footage using sharpening only on the luminance channel. Sharpening is more noticeable in the luminance and we typically blur the chroma anyway to get nice skin tones. I modified the concept and use it for both luma charpening and chroma noise reduction. Hopefully this helps out with the chroma pattern that you see in moire. I have not tested it but you guys can check it out and see if it works on chroma moire patterns. The moire will still be there (the pattern), but this might help remove the eye-sore that is rainbow moire.

If anyone tries this in footage with that rainbow moire pattern, let me know if it works!

Anyway, here's the link: http://pauldv.net/chroma-noise-reduction-bmcc/

CaptainHook
02-15-2013, 07:28 PM
Thanks for this, i will check it out! :)

CaptainHook
02-15-2013, 07:46 PM
Kholi,

I have tried using Resolve NR using the method described by Paul above in splitting the chroma/luminance. Seems to have worked pretty well but i did have to turn up the NR in Resolve quite high (30), but i also added a small amount of sharpening to the luma.

Here it is:

http://f.cl.ly/items/1q1d021h3E1y3B1N2Z21/00090000_ChromaNR_Resolve_940.jpg

Large: http://f.cl.ly/items/353x0f022O3z3R3F1X21/00090000_ChromaNR_Resolve.jpg


And a reminder of the same from Neat Video:

http://f.cl.ly/items/2W023D3Z3Q0J3R3b1k24/00090000_NeatVideo_940.jpg

Large: http://f.cl.ly/items/0a232s3N3Q300l1g323d/00090000_NeatVideo.jpg


I think this Resolve method stacks up well but need to see both in motion!
Thanks Paul!

Kholi
02-15-2013, 08:01 PM
That looks REALLY promising. It's not completely gone but it's MUCh better, and that's a worse case scenario so this is good. This could probably be a great temporary solution until we hear something back about an OLPF.

=[ Not having MFT and full Resolve... frowny face. I could've tested this days ago but I'm glad someone tried it, thanks Paul and Cap!!! More reason to look forward to finally gettin me'a camera.

I'd upload DNGs but can't right now, doing long days. Next week I might be able to dig back into this or at least post the DNGs from the example.

PaulDelVecchio
02-15-2013, 08:29 PM
Awesome. I know it sounds silly, but I tried to shoot stuff to get my camera to moire (I didn't want to shoot a mesh or a window screen as that's not really an effective test when you can see through it) but I couldn't get it to moire badly like the clip in the office posted earlier.

Anyways, I'm glad it works! 30 is a bit high, but it doesn't look like it didn't have any adverse effects so I guess it's ok. Good stuff!

CaptainHook
02-15-2013, 08:40 PM
Yeah, 30 seemed high to me too but i kept turning it up until most of the moire disappeared. :) It's a much better method for NR in resolve as even just 2-3 doing a full NR in the 'normal' way looked unusable!

grinleon
02-18-2013, 07:23 AM
Before CC:
2397

After CC in resolve (worked on separated chroma and luma channels ) :
2398

After adding a bit of sharpness:
2399

Kholi
02-18-2013, 10:25 AM
That's a great real world example. Thanks for sharing! How is it in motion?

mrholman
03-20-2013, 02:40 AM
Thanks. That was really cool. I have tons of looks I've created in lightroom so that may come into play. I just read that you can make a custom LUT from a look that you made in lightroom and use that as your grade in resolve. Does anyone know how to do that?


This may be way off topic. Has anyone seen this video where the author is using reverse proxies to bring his CinemaDNG files into Premiere Pro & After Effects? He even pulls up the RAW converter in After Effects. You could theoretically use the Noise Reduction processing of Adobe Camera Raw on your CinemaDNG files this way without converting to TIFF or PSDs.

CinemaDNG Round Tripping (https://vimeo.com/53379028#)

Copying metadata to a CinemaDNG sequence for import to After Effects. No TIFF or PSD conversion.

Cinema DNG: Using Lightroom and After Effects (https://vimeo.com/53637536)

icicle22
04-03-2013, 01:13 PM
Guys. I just got bit by the moire bug on some clothing. I was shooting an actress wearing a chroma green polo shirt (company supplied shirt for the video) and the clips turned out great. However, the BMCC is so sharp that the fine weave pattern on the polo shirt is causing some moire issues in areas. I have tried the resolve methods posted where I separated the luma and chroma channels but it doesn't seem to help as the actual pattern on the shirt (not an actual pattern but the stitching) seems to be creating it in the BW channel. Even when I completely remove saturation I can still see the moire which seems to appear as 2 shades of green dancing in waves (just like rainbow moire only 2 tones). Any ideas how to get rid of this?

I have used the Resolve qualifiers to select only the green color of the shirt and tried slightly blurring but it doesn't seem to help. Additionally there is a logo on the shirt that I would need to retain the sharpness on two....meaning I'd have to setup another node and mask that too. Seems like a lot to do to remove moire....especially since this is a solid color shirt!

THanks for any advice.

Martin
04-18-2013, 11:44 PM
First of all thank you to Paul for sharing your techniques in Resolve, it looked like the Chroma noise reduction also took down some of the CA on the porcelain figure a bit?

I have the exact same problem as icicle22 in the clothing moire, a person being interviewed shifting slightly makes it look like a massive psychedelic disco shirt. Too bad it's a corporate vid and not a music vid or the effect would have been kinda cool! :P

Before watching Paul's video I was also trying to chroma key without luma separation and applying NR, which did nothing. So going to try another way now using the chroma-luma separation and roto-tracking to catch the rainbow-buggers.

Most of the dancing is happening where the fabric is facing directly to the lens in my shot, so big patches in the middle of the shirt that can be isolated, soft windowed, without bordering on other objects. Going to give it a try now.

Martin
04-24-2013, 09:03 AM
Well I've tried, and like Icicle22 i can't get the moire out of the shirt. I even tried with several extra nodes duplicating the luma chroma split layer nodes, as well as just adding more chroma only layer nodes, neither of those methods works. The dancing rainbows remain.

MelbFilm
05-04-2013, 09:14 PM
I was testing out a new rig and shot my son running around outside, he was wearing a grey sweatshirt and when I looked at the ProRes I also noticed a nasty red/green chroma noise pattern on his top. Thought it may have been my Camera as I've ony had it a fewdays and haven't had a chance to play with it but it appeared isolated to his top. The texture of the material was nothing special and I was a bit confused by the outcome.

Kholi
05-16-2013, 11:02 AM
Thanks to Paul DelVecchio's great resource for chroma noise reduction ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=degEMVPLPdU ) things are looking cleaner.

What I'm trying to figure out's this: how do you use Paul's Node Tree but modify it to where you're able to track a power window with the chroma noise reduction applied to it. Say if you were trying to do one quarter of the screen or a noisy face for whatever reason.

Been trying and searching for a few hours and last night as well, no luck.

Any help would be appreciated!

Jason Greene
05-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Kholi, I was doing the same thing two days ago, if I understand you correctly. I was tracking someone's hat that showed a lot of moire. I didn't want to apply the aggressive color blur to the whole frame, but just the hat.

What I wanted to do, but I never figured out, was to have the same tracked power window on both the luma and chroma nodes. But, I couldn't figure out how to get them to be identical. I seem to recall reading that this might be an upcoming feature of Resolve 10 (the ability to copy tracked mattes/windows from one node to another - but I could be wrong).

My workaround that seemed to work was as follows.
1. Create the layer nodes as in Paul's video.
2. Apply the power/tracking window on the chroma node and add your blur or noise reduction to the object. This will look wrong, as all but the power window area will be black and white. That's okay, we'll address this in the next step.
3. While on the chroma node, add a serial node. Then, adjust this node to also be chroma only (i.e., remove the luma). This should result in having two chroma nodes (in series) that get combined with the luma node in the layer node. I apply a little blur to the second chroma node, too. I've found that the BMCC footage usually benefits from a little chroma blur.

That worked for me, I think. Hopefully this works for what you are trying to do, too.

Kholi
05-16-2013, 11:50 AM
That did it.

And, that's exactly why I went looking into it. I'm gonna combine this thread with the other one because I think this is a pretty solid way to get rid of moire for now. It won't deal with the aliasing, but for the rainbows?

Lookin' a ton better.

Kholi
05-16-2013, 12:03 PM
And here are some examples from a quick shoot like two weeks ago (click image for 1080 jpegs to see the difference):

Picture 1: Before
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_BEFOREs.jpg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_BEFORE.jpg)


Picture 1: After (just the power window used to kill the color moire)
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIXs.jpg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIX.jpg)

Picture 2: Before
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_BEFORE_2s.jpg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_BEFORE_2.jpg)

Picture 2: After (power window)
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIX_2s.jpg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIX_2.jpg)

Picture 2: All chroma noise reduced
http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIX_ALLs.jpg (http://www.campcomet.com/stills/pr/Moire_FIX_ALL.jpg)

Notice how the face loses some life. You can get it close, but I could never really get it back to the original, which appeared to look much more life like in comparison.


It isn't a perfect fix because you have to add some steps in post, and you kind of take a hit on color where you're removing the moire, but it is a large relief for me that this is even possible until we have better solutions. Being able to show this to my colorist so that they can work it into the workflow, and start teaching others, is going to be a very big help.

WE've had to do worse to fix RED footage, canon footage, etc.

Thanks a ton, Jason. And thanks to Paul for the initial method that brought this about.

PaulDelVecchio
05-16-2013, 12:34 PM
Awesome! Glad this worked out. Of course, when Resolve 10 comes out, we can use Neat Video to play around with the Chroma and Luma noise reduction as we wish. I think I'm going to try Neat Video and see how it removes the rainbow moire. Having Neat Video in Resolve is going to be such a great addition to the tool.

Jason Greene
05-16-2013, 01:53 PM
I'm glad that worked for you. Looks great, Kholi. Yes, the targeted chroma blur works well and leaves the chroma detail in the face.

Out of curiosity, what level of blur did you have to use on the shirt?

Kholi
05-16-2013, 02:00 PM
I'm glad that worked for you. Looks great, Kholi. Yes, the targeted chroma blur works well and leaves the chroma detail in the face.

Out of curiosity, what level of blur did you have to use on the shirt?

I actually didn't use any blur on the shirt, I just shot NR removal up to 6 I believe and that removed the chroma. I think mist or blur and a combination of NR would be a better combo, though. Will have to try that.

CaptainHook
05-16-2013, 04:56 PM
Yep, i've been doing what Jason said too. I also sometimes do a "windowed" sharpen node on the luma path too. This will be easier in R10 with the new Splitter Nodes etc. The only thing i can really add relates to this:


What I wanted to do, but I never figured out, was to have the same tracked power window on both the luma and chroma nodes. But, I couldn't figure out how to get them to be identical. I seem to recall reading that this might be an upcoming feature of Resolve 10 (the ability to copy tracked mattes/windows from one node to another - but I could be wrong).

How i've dealt with this is the following, grab the little blue triangle on the right side (output) of the node with your tracked power window and connect it into the blue triangle on the left (input) side of your target node, then in your target node go into the key tab and invert the input key. Node tree looks like this:

http://f.cl.ly/items/2O3v0e372J1O3n2M1C3q/Windowed%20NR.jpg

markmwilliams
05-16-2013, 05:19 PM
I've yet to delve into Resolve but I'm really hoping that v10 comes with a really straightforward process to reduce the occasional ugly moire that seems to be the biggest weakness of the BMCC. Also be interesting to see how much of an issue moire is on the new Pocket and 4K cams.

Thanks Kholi for starting this enlightening and occasionally confusing thread.

WhiteRabbit
09-02-2013, 03:39 AM
J.F.R, this post is with reference to the Rodney Charters thread, and thought I would post in here to stay on the moire topic I wish to discuss further with you and other members, and perhaps revive in this thread. I do not currently use Resolve as my main post colour and grading tool/app, and perhaps you may be in a similar situation to me, so perhaps this thread is not the right place to ask you about your experience with moire and how you deal with it in post, if at all?

I have watched some of your music productions, great looking content and post colour work. Have you used the 5D on client based music projects and encountered the moire issue in your shots, and if so, have you abandoned the shot, or fixed it in post? If a post fix, care to share any techniques? If Resolve is not your app of choice, perhaps we may need to take this discussion to another area in the forum. I am not currently using Resolve other than slowly getting familiar with the Lite version, and I prefer to work from within my Premiere, and limited use of AE. I have a licence for Neat in Premiere, which provides a possible method to try and tame moire, as discussed and samples presented in this thread.

I am also curious if filters to some extent do what an OLPF can do? I have not seen any tests to use an alternate filter to an OLPF to try and tame moire. I am not suggesting front filter will do a similar job to a specific filter like the OLPF at the end of the optics chain. CaptainHook has the GlimmerGlass 1 (GG1) which may help moire in some situations? I am sold on grabbing a GG1 to add to my filter kit. I went to order a GG1 in 82mm, to match my run and gun filter set, and the anticipated wait was about 10 weeks. I did not order it, instead purchasing the things I needed for the BMPCC. GG1 is not a popular build in 82mm. I will purchase a GG1 if the BMPC 4K does not appeal to me when I see some sample footage, and then purchase the BMCC in MFT. I have various 4x4 diffusion type filters also, however, since I don't have a 5D or BMCC, I can't really test specifically for attempting to tame moire. J.F.R, I am interested to hear some of your feedback regarding dealing with moire issues in footage that you may encounter when using a camera like the 5D in your music video productions? Thank you.

CaptainHook
09-02-2013, 03:52 AM
When i next get time, i will try induce moire on the BMCC/EF and then do a comparison with and without the GG1 so you can see if it's something you'd be interested in. Otherwise i suggest trying to rent one if possible (i could not find one to rent here in NZ :( ).

WhiteRabbit
09-02-2013, 04:14 AM
Thanks for chiming in, CaptainHook. I should have just ordered the GG1 when I placed the order for various items from B&H, not realising after that I could have split the shipping and have the GG1 sent later, perhaps 10 weeks or so later. I did not want to have all the other items in the order held up. I got the order wrong. I will order next time, and do split shipment. Interested to see any test you may care to do with the BMCC naked (with perhaps ND/IRND filters), and then with the GG1, and any other diffusion type filters you have in your kit (promist, etc), aiming at a problematic moire shot.

django
01-21-2014, 11:17 PM
Awesome! Glad this worked out. Of course, when Resolve 10 comes out, we can use Neat Video to play around with the Chroma and Luma noise reduction as we wish. I think I'm going to try Neat Video and see how it removes the rainbow moire. Having Neat Video in Resolve is going to be such a great addition to the tool.

hey Paul, now that Resolve 10 is out and NR is done differently, how do you go about reducing chroma noise/moire?

PaulDelVecchio
01-26-2014, 10:37 PM
hey Paul, now that Resolve 10 is out and NR is done differently, how do you go about reducing chroma noise/moire?

I tried the new noise reduction honestly, I feel the old method is still better. The new one, I felt I had to increase it so much that it just blurred the colors so much and it started looking messy. I also like using Neat Video and it actually is what I use most of the time.

David Del Real
04-22-2015, 09:27 PM
What ever happened to the uprezzing solution in Nuke that got rid of the aliasing, moire, and chroma aliasing? That thread seemed to just die out with no final conclusion.

Yes, what happened? Is there a way in AE or any other software to achieve this? Sent back my Mosaic Engineering filter, too cumbersome since we take photos too. I have a couple of 6D's and there has to be another way around the aliasing.

Sorry to revive an old thread but I've been combing the web trying to find some help with this (and I know this is a BMUser site, but aliasing affects a lot of us).

stip
02-18-2016, 08:15 AM
So, in 2016, is there a new preferred method to remove moire?

dia3olik
05-03-2016, 10:32 AM
yeah I'm curious too!!!!

Any updates??

New tools perhaps?

RomanStone
05-14-2019, 02:15 PM
Bumped for 2019.