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rommex
05-18-2012, 05:11 AM
Hi there,
Does anybody know if the camera is going to have any lut / style support? Considering the high DR and low-contrast picture it renders, it could be difficult to assess precise focusing unless the picture on the screen is pushed in contrast.
any thoughts? thanks

laco
05-18-2012, 05:16 AM
Hi there,
Does anybody know if the camera is going to have any lut / style support? Considering the high DR and low-contrast picture it renders, it could be difficult to assess precise focusing unless the picture on the screen is pushed in contrast.
any thoughts? thanks
According to John Brawley:
"You can record either Video (709ish) or Film (LOG) to ProRes. Independent of that.....you can ALSO SEND Video or Film through the HD-SDI....neither of which at the moment affect what's actually displayed on the back of the camera's LCD....At the moment it shows a kind of LOG image....What BMD refer to as BM-LOG. It's their "take" on log...but it's a slightly more contrasty version of LOG. Something that is a bit easier to look at than flat images, but still is flat enough to represent what you're recording in RAW..."

So the best way is to buy a HD-SDI display, and set the output to "video".

rommex
05-18-2012, 06:16 AM
Yeah, I read about this, but I guess that implementing LUT support or, at least, 2-3 customizable viewing styles is a pure matter of firmware. Hope they will eventually do it.

Brian@202020
05-18-2012, 06:20 AM
I thought I saw somewhere early on that they plan to have different LUTs, or importable LUTs, just not at release. Don't quote me on this tho, but I do feel like I remember a BM guy talking about it in an NAB video.

John Brawley
05-18-2012, 06:44 AM
No downloadable LUT's.

Might happen down the road....

jb

rommex
05-18-2012, 08:39 AM
John, thanks. What workaround do you personally see in the first place to make sure that low-contrast look doesn't hinder the precision of focusing?
Thanks for any tip

Philip Lipetz
05-18-2012, 09:44 AM
I found that the log look on the display reduced contrast so much that I fear the display would be useless in daylight. Even indoors they show the camera with a hood. it also makes it very hard to judge WB, or to a lesser degree focus.

electricpig
05-18-2012, 10:39 AM
There *should* be a Linear viewer LUT on the camera to view the raw Log data.

I composited with Kodak's Cineon in the old days as my main tool.
It worked with Kodak 10-bit Log files, 13 stops of exposure. 1024 code values
The internal maths on Cineon was Log, there was no Linear conversion. All colour correcting, regaining etc was therefore in Log.

A lovely way to work, far more massaging of the image felt possible, compared to the constant that Linear gives you.

But we viewed and comped our work through a Linear LUT, 95 black, 685 white, 1.7 gamma. This was equivalent to the look of the film print projected in a Cinema.
Switchable on and off with a key. Almost always on to work, but not touching the Log data.
Great to check your edges, keys etc in Log while viewing everything in Linear.

And the only way to really see what was happening with the image was through that viewing LUT, so I empathise with the focus/exposure issue if the is intact no viewing LUT for the raw data on the BMC

John Brawley
05-18-2012, 05:01 PM
There *should* be a Linear viewer LUT on the camera to view the raw Log data.

I composited with Kodak's Cineon in the old days as my main tool.
It worked with Kodak 10-bit Log files, 13 stops of exposure. 1024 code values
The internal maths on Cineon was Log, there was no Linear conversion. All colour correcting, regaining etc was therefore in Log.

A lovely way to work, far more massaging of the image felt possible, compared to the constant that Linear gives you.

But we viewed and comped our work through a Linear LUT, 95 black, 685 white, 1.7 gamma. This was equivalent to the look of the film print projected in a Cinema.
Switchable on and off with a key. Almost always on to work, but not touching the Log data.
Great to check your edges, keys etc in Log while viewing everything in Linear.

And the only way to really see what was happening with the image was through that viewing LUT, so I empathise with the focus/exposure issue if the is intact no viewing LUT for the raw data on the BMC

The very first time I used the camera, I had to frame, expose and compose in linear. There wasn't even a screen then, it was hooked up to a macbook AIR. It was almost impossible.

Look the screen is very useable but it isn't a retina display from an iPad. Touch screens are difficult and mean less options, and you have to remember the cost tradeoff. The camera has a peaking function which makes it easier to pick focus. Presently you can toggle it on and off while you're shooting which is nice.

There is a viewing LUT.

It's a less than LOG but not quite 709 LUT. You just can't download a custom LUT.

I've used the screen outdoors. I've never had a hood to use, and it would help. It's not easy, but it was possible to use in the outdoors. All of my Bondi and Beach footage from the dusk shots where shot with no EVF, no external monitoring. In fact, all of my current test footage was shot using only the screen.

jb

electricpig
05-19-2012, 07:43 AM
John, that's good to hear. Can you toggle the viewing LUT on and off?

Shouldn't the viewing LUT be a standard like 709 rather than an inbetween custom look,
otherwise what is your point of reference to the rest of the video world?

John Brawley
05-19-2012, 08:26 AM
John, that's good to hear. Can you toggle the viewing LUT on and off?

Shouldn't the viewing LUT be a standard like 709 rather than an inbetween custom look,
otherwise what is your point of reference to the rest of the video world?

There is only the one LUT. That's all that they are looking at doing at the moment. 709 is in fact very limiting. Using tools like ZEBRA in 709 will mean you clip details much sooner than the RAW would. In other words, you're camera will show clipping on 100% Zebra when in fact there's a another stop or two in the highlights in RAW.

You can of course, monitor the HD-SDI in 709 (Video) space. A lot of the smaller HD-SDI monitors now have waveform's built in and there's always Ultrascope on the Thunderbolt as well.

jb

electricpig
05-19-2012, 08:43 AM
surely the zebras would always be relevant to the underlying RAW image, with the viewing LUT being just a viewing window to put the flat image into a normal picture viewing space.

In Nuke if I use a colour picker I'm always sampling the underlying RAW image.
My viewing LUT has no relevance to my picker values.

John Brawley
05-19-2012, 08:45 AM
No. They aren't.

It's same on other cameras like RED. Some exposure tools aren't based on RAW sensor info, but on the view LUT. IN RED only Sizzle, goal posts and the histograms are based on RAW. Other tools like Zebra and False Colour are based on the selected view LUT.

jb

StephenM
05-19-2012, 02:24 PM
No. They aren't.

It's same on other cameras like RED. Some exposure tools aren't based on RAW sensor info, but on the view LUT. IN RED only Sizzle, goal posts and the histograms are based on RAW. Other tools like Zebra and False Colour are based on the selected view LUT.

jb

John, any chance of BM adding goal posts and a histogram? I've love 'em on the RED.

electricpig
05-20-2012, 12:46 AM
Thanks John. I'm not familiar with the Red interface, only the image.

It would be good to have a double waveform/histogram, with a darker viewing LUT graph overlaying a lighter RAW graph.
So you'd always have reference to how you were pitching exposure on your neg while also being aware of broadcast/film limits.