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MDWB
05-09-2012, 04:18 PM
As much as I love the "idea" of the camera (iīve ordered one) itīs about time we got to look at some more footage/samples.

I can appreciate that final tweeks are being made to the sensor, but 2,5 months from handing over 3000 USD to BMD (for their first camera ever) we should at least be permitted to play/see/test some serious footage.

cīmon BMCC!

Phil999
05-09-2012, 05:45 PM
what would be good in the mean time is to have a couple of dng-sequences made with a different camera.

stip
05-09-2012, 06:07 PM
You can download DNG sequences from Ikonoskop's A-cam DII on their website.

http://www.ikonoskop.com/footage/

MDWB
05-11-2012, 08:57 AM
Just got this reply to my question from BMC:

Currently the Cinema Camera is really in an early beta form. We really need to tighten a few things up before we can get any preproduction models out the door. Beyond that we need to work with Apple as our current agreements don't allow us to send out Thunderbolt or ProRes technology until they are certified officially.

So this seems like it is going to be a few weeks (6-7) before we might be able to really have discussions about any kind of field tests. We would like to get a few of those under our belt before the launch in July, but right now there is still a lot of work to be done!

mhood
05-11-2012, 09:03 AM
I thought ThunderBolt was Intel. Seven weeks from today is the last week in June...and they're going to deliver in July?

mbeck
05-11-2012, 09:08 AM
Seven weeks from today is the last week in June...and they're going to deliver in July?
They are not waiting to make the cameras... just waiting to get them out the door. (in people's hands)

mhood
05-11-2012, 09:31 AM
They are not waiting to make the cameras... just waiting to get them out the door. (in people's hands)

IOW, if they do ship in July, the "preproduction" models either won't exist or can't be talked about pending their agreement with Apple?

Phil
05-11-2012, 10:41 AM
IOW, if they do ship in July, the "preproduction" models either won't exist or can't be talked about pending their agreement with Apple?

Apple & Microsoft for the hard drive exfat file system, Im sure Apple will be cool about it,

Kholi
05-11-2012, 12:06 PM
I know that I may be in the minority by saying this, and I think that wanting more footage is not an unreasonable request at all...

Me, personally, I don't care. If I have to be the guinea pig then I'll do that. Sometimes it's just like that, and no I'm not rich (far from it), I'm doing some shady deals to get a camera--basically pre-selling work to a few people that trust me and pre-selling rentals on the camera, but I'm game to go in somewhat blind on this one.

mhood
05-11-2012, 12:17 PM
Since there is no alternative, I think anyone who has pre-ordered will travel that road beside you.

pcenginefx
05-11-2012, 12:44 PM
"Early Beta" doesn't sound good....coming from a consumer hardware development background, I'd be VERY surprised if they can deliver finished cameras before Aug 1.

Of course, if one ends up in my hands before then, I won't complain....just not sure how realistic a Jul/Aug. release-to-world shipping date is from the sounds of it.

randyman
05-11-2012, 01:02 PM
I can understand that people are very eager to see/get their hands on some actual RAW footage... and I'm not criticizing anyone who is expressing that eagerness.

Still, I know that anything that gets released is going to be instantly subjected to an incredibly intense degree of vivisection. I can't blame the folks at BMD for wanting to refine their system as much as possible before anything goes public.

And you have to admit... the fact is, *absolutely no matter what they release*, there will be haters eager to find fault and trash whatever they see. You know what I'm talking about - a real feeding frenzy.

So I'm happy to be patient, and see whatever comes when it comes. I know it's like waiting for Christmas, but that's part of the fun.

PaPa
05-12-2012, 07:31 AM
I can understand that people are very eager to see/get their hands on some actual RAW footage... and I'm not criticizing anyone who is expressing that eagerness.

Still, I know that anything that gets released is going to be instantly subjected to an incredibly intense degree of vivisection. I can't blame the folks at BMD for wanting to refine their system as much as possible before anything goes public.

And you have to admit... the fact is, *absolutely no matter what they release*, there will be haters eager to find fault and trash whatever they see. You know what I'm talking about - a real feeding frenzy.

So I'm happy to be patient, and see whatever comes when it comes. I know it's like waiting for Christmas, but that's part of the fun.

^^^ What he said.

mhood
05-12-2012, 07:47 AM
Sorry but to me this isn't at all like w8ing for Christmas. I have to establish a workflow that lives within my particular parameters (totally portable by one person by air) and I have never worked with RAW, DNxHD or ProRes before (laugh all you want but I went from composite to MiniDV/DVCAM to AVCHD on a 7D). I want some files to make sure that I can put the camera (I bought) to work the day I get it. I'm not out to pixel peep it to death...I wouldn't know how to start to do that anyway. To quote a conversation overheard between two buzzards: "Patience my butt, I'm going to kill something!" ;-)

Would it hurt anything to give us 10 seconds of a color chart or something in RAW, ProRes Log and 709 and DNxHD Log and 709? I would sure appreciate those five files to work up a game plan with...not to mention the Metadata XML (a total mystery for me).

Andrew
05-12-2012, 11:40 AM
I hear you mhood, but I don't think those are luxuries an extra early adopter can expect right now. Let's hope we see more soon.

laco
05-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Would it hurt anything to give us 10 seconds of a color chart or something in RAW, ProRes Log and 709 and HNxHD Log and 709? I would sure appreciate those five files to work up a game plan with...not to mention the Metadata XML (a total mystery for me).

OK, so let's clear some things up:) I don't want to do a scientific analyzation of these terms, but more like trying to explain what do these "things" give to you.

RAW - this means the camera records the raw sensor data not a finalized "image". It is like the ingredients of a soup, it's still not chosen if it will be a bean soup, or a tomato soup, you have a lot more control of what will it be. For example, when using RED cameras - which record compressed RAW - you can change the white balance of an image, after it's recorded.
ProRes - this is a compression codec, like mpeg, Jpeg, or h264. But what differentiates it, that it is one of the best codecs available right now - if you ask me, it's the best. Even the Arri Alexa - a ~$70.000 camera - records to this codec internally. And believe me, a lot of movies just doesn't go the RAW way, but record to Prores. So if you go to the cinema, and know that they used the Alexa, maybe you'll see something that has been recorded to Prores.
DNxHD this is a compression codec again, it's the native codec of Avid Media Composer. So if you workflow include this application, you can record to this format, and then you don't have to encode the source footage to be able to start editing.
Log and Linear color space You can read a lot of this one. But the main thing is that with Log recording, you will record an absolutely contrast-less, flat image. Recording to this format will ensure, that everything the sensor is capable of will be stored in the video file. This is useful for grading but not optimal for on-set monitoring. Even for editing you will need to apply a contrast to it.
The other option is the REC709 color space, which will result a contrasty picture, that's good for projects where you don't have the time to grade the image, and for on-set monitoring.

mhood
05-12-2012, 01:07 PM
^^^While I appreciate another explanation of the various file types, I still would like short examples of each. Please include some metadata so I can learn how Premiere CS5.5 will deal with the files. I want to discover exactly which I will find the most useful in my endeavors.

helgetjelta
05-12-2012, 02:23 PM
Sorry but I can't find the DNG sequence, please help ?

laco
05-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Sorry but I can't find the DNG sequence, please help ?

1920x1080 samples
http://www.ikonoskop.com/footage/
http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/cinemadng/?tabID=samples#tabTop

helgetjelta
05-13-2012, 01:19 AM
Tanks for the Adobe link, the other, well i can only see final footage not raw deg sequences for download..... :)

laco
05-13-2012, 01:34 AM
Tanks for the Adobe link, the other, well i can only see final footage not raw deg sequences for download..... :)

Ikonoskop changed their site sorry:S
Maybe they will put up the CinemaDNG files again. (there were 3 files)

John Brawley
05-13-2012, 07:18 AM
I can understand that people are very eager to see/get their hands on some actual RAW footage... and I'm not criticizing anyone who is expressing that eagerness.

Still, I know that anything that gets released is going to be instantly subjected to an incredibly intense degree of vivisection. I can't blame the folks at BMD for wanting to refine their system as much as possible before anything goes public.

And you have to admit... the fact is, *absolutely no matter what they release*, there will be haters eager to find fault and trash whatever they see. You know what I'm talking about - a real feeding frenzy.

So I'm happy to be patient, and see whatever comes when it comes. I know it's like waiting for Christmas, but that's part of the fun.


BMD are very aware that the footage would be flogged to death. They want to get the camera more *right* than it is right now....

Things are moving behind the scenes I can promise you....

jb

Kavadni
05-13-2012, 08:24 AM
What about 10 seconds of color bars, or 10 seconds of black, in the RAW so we can start on our post-production workflows?
Too much to ask i guess.

laco
05-13-2012, 10:24 AM
What about 10 seconds of color bars, or 10 seconds of black, in the RAW so we can start on our post-production workflows?
Too much to ask i guess.

Why don't you download the Ikonoskop footage, and resize the images to 2.5K, then save them as DNG?:)

Also... post-production workflow for this file format - in my opinion - will change in the next 2 months... Let's start with native Adobe support (I hope so:)

Kavadni
05-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Why don't you download the Ikonoskop footage, and resize the images to 2.5K, then save them as DNG?:)

Also... post-production workflow for this file format - in my opinion - will change in the next 2 months... Let's start with native Adobe support (I hope so:)

I have downloaded them .. they are not from the BMDCCamera.

Experience with black magic tells me things are not always as simple as they seem .. case in hand uncompressed QT files from hyperdeck shuttle supposedly you only need quicktime .. truth you need black magic codecs in addition to quicktime. While that may be ovious to some, it's not what the marketing states.

I also think it might be foolhardy to assume that the IKON files are exactly what the BMDCC will produce.

What is the big deal .. black .. colour bars .. nobody can misjudge the sensor.

StephenM
05-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Experience with black magic tells me things are not always as simple as they seem .. case in hand uncompressed QT files from hyperdeck shuttle supposedly you only need quicktime .. truth you need black magic codecs in addition to quicktime. While that may be ovious to some, it's not what the marketing states.


That is not my experience. To test, I just recorded a clip on the Hyperdeck and successfully played it back from the SSD on my wife's computer. It does not have any BM software installed. Just a stock MBA.

laco
05-13-2012, 01:58 PM
I have downloaded them .. they are not from the BMDCCamera.

Experience with black magic tells me things are not always as simple as they seem .. case in hand uncompressed QT files from hyperdeck shuttle supposedly you only need quicktime .. truth you need black magic codecs in addition to quicktime. While that may be ovious to some, it's not what the marketing states.

I also think it might be foolhardy to assume that the IKON files are exactly what the BMDCC will produce.

What is the big deal .. black .. colour bars .. nobody can misjudge the sensor.
Well, even if you have to install one plus codec for playing uncompressed QT, is that called "not simple"?:)

Ikonoskop files are the same format. Only other size (ikonoskop is 1080p, BMC is 2.5K).
So to test your workflow, it will do...

StephenM
05-13-2012, 02:24 PM
Resolve 8 already supports Cinema DNG. And given that they are supplying Resolve 9 with the camera, I have no doubt that whatever the camera outputs will be fully supported.

I for one have no interest in editing raw, uncompressed files in an NLE. They are going into Resolve for a quick one light and a render out to a lighter weight format like ProRes LT for editing then XML back to Resolve for grading with the raw files.

adam777
05-13-2012, 07:24 PM
Resolve 8 already supports Cinema DNG. And given that they are supplying Resolve 9 with the camera, I have no doubt that whatever the camera outputs will be fully supported.

I for one have no interest in editing raw, uncompressed files in an NLE. They are going into Resolve for a quick one light and a render out to a lighter weight format like ProRes LT for editing then XML back to Resolve for grading with the raw files.

Are titles, transitions and effects applied to the prores LT file in your NLE, automatically transfered to the raw file in Resolve when you import the xml? (yes I am very new to this)

StephenM
05-13-2012, 08:56 PM
In most situations, I send the locked picture to Resolve via XML without the title tracks. (Some NLE's, FCPX is one, can round trip the title tracks undamaged) After grading and rendering the final image files go back to the NLE, tittles and audio are added and the whole thing sent for final output. Most transitions make the round trip just fine, with the exception of speed ramps.

And for the record, I do narrative film projects that are generally light on effects and compositing.

adam777
05-14-2012, 12:39 AM
Thanks Stephen :)

Jason R. Johnston
05-26-2012, 10:34 AM
I for one have no interest in editing raw, uncompressed files in an NLE. They are going into Resolve for a quick one light and a render out to a lighter weight format like ProRes LT for editing then XML back to Resolve for grading with the raw files.

Yep, pretty much.

razz16mm
05-30-2012, 01:11 PM
Why don't you download the Ikonoskop footage, and resize the images to 2.5K, then save them as DNG?:)

Also... post-production workflow for this file format - in my opinion - will change in the next 2 months... Let's start with native Adobe support (I hope so:)

There is a CinemaDNG plugin for CS5.5 that reportedly works for CS6 too. Native DNG support on the time line with limited one light debayer capability. The plugin should work for Lightworks too since they support Premiere and AE plugins. No report on that yet though.

I am going to experiment with raw image processors like Lightroom for primary debayer and grading. No transcoding until final pass for release format. Format and resolution independent NLE's like CS6 and Lightworks for me.

CineMac
05-31-2012, 04:11 PM
Oh the days are dragging by.... really looking forward to seeing more from Blackmagic!

nickjbedford
05-31-2012, 04:58 PM
Really looking forward to have a little silver box in my hands :)

I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting. The images I've seen have convinced me that it's going to be far better than a DSLR, and a step towards a high end camera. A great, capable learning tool, myself. But I too would love to get a clip or two to play with in Resolve. But as the great master once said, "Patience, young padawan."

mhood
05-31-2012, 05:09 PM
When do Bloom, Wilt and Green get theirs? That would be a step in the right direction.

CineMac
05-31-2012, 08:09 PM
Hmmmm not sure. For some reason I think I remember reading that "prominent bloggers" would get a sneak peak in mid-June early-July?

I've been playing with Resolve in the meantime. Cool app. Now, I'm on the hunt for some RAW or LOG footage to play with that's outside of what you can get from Blackmagic.

nickjbedford
05-31-2012, 08:37 PM
Hmmmm not sure. For some reason I think I remember reading that "prominent bloggers" would get a sneak peak in mid-June early-July?

I've been playing with Resolve in the meantime. Cool app. Now, I'm on the hunt for some RAW or LOG footage to play with that's outside of what you can get from Blackmagic.

Have you had a look at the ProRes files that Blackmagic have on their website from an ARRI Alexa in LogC?

CineMac
05-31-2012, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I've been playing with "Old Car" and "Main Street!" Maybe I'll download the Vegas clips to see what they're like.

I also recently found these (http://blog.localheropost.com/main/2010/10/6/arri-alexa-event-test-footage.html) from a post house called Local Hero. Not super pretty but something to play with!

Maybe we should start a "found footage" thread?

RyGuy
05-31-2012, 10:34 PM
Here's some more :)

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/alexa-tests.html

suljanic
06-07-2012, 02:21 PM
I found some pictures on Facebook about the BMCC... :cool: but I have not seen any footage yet...

Here are all pictures: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398258513557700.106898.118532781530276&type=3

https://fbcdn_sphotos_b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/461174_398258730224345_871678489_o.jpg

Barry Green
06-07-2012, 02:31 PM
That's a PL lens, so clearly someone has made an adapter that works with some zooms...

suljanic
06-07-2012, 02:39 PM
This is an interesting adapter. http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=11817

Maybe some company make such an adapter for BM Camera.

mhood
06-07-2012, 02:41 PM
184

...and that's an SSD, so clearly someone is recording with a BMC. Would love to see the footage. ;)

imdjay
06-07-2012, 03:30 PM
while i'd also like to see some footage, im not budging on my preorder. despite my usual stance on buying based on reviews, not specs, sometimes you just have to play guinea pig. all the camera has to do is live up to the specs and that's it. i tried out the rolling shutter in person and at a normal focal length its just fine, no worse and probably a bit better than the average dslr. that, and it really makes it easy for me to decide between a new 5" monitor vs 7" monitor ;)

MDWB
06-09-2012, 04:57 PM
Hereīs the full BMD reply to my email back in may, so should be some footage circulating soon ...

Currently the Cinema Camera is really in an early beta form. We really need to tighten a few things up before we can get any preproduction models out the door. Beyond that we need to work with Apple as our current agreements don't allow us to send out Thunderbolt or ProRes technology until they are certified officially.

So this seems like it is going to be a few weeks (6-7) before we might be able to really have discussions about any kind of field tests. We would like to get a few of those under our belt before the launch in July, but right now there is still a lot of work to be done!

It is probably worth following up with us in late May and we can line up with the Product Manager to see what opportunities might be open at that time.

So at this time we are just going to be staying hard at work to get this camera complete and get units shipping in July. It would be great if we could get them out earlier but the reality is we still have a lot of work to do!

Thanks for the feedback. Obviously we've got to commit to a set of specs to get out the door and that's where we wanted to start. I think we got a lot right so far! We might be able to update frame rates in the future… but again we have to commit to something we can ship!

CineMac
06-17-2012, 07:24 PM
Looks like John has shot some new footage! We may only be days away from more samples!

205

nickjbedford
06-17-2012, 07:33 PM
Looks like John has shot some new footage! We may only be days away from more samples!

205

Giddy! I've settled into the idea of shooting 90% ProRes (due to storage budget and things), and this just makes me happy to have done so!

Tom
06-17-2012, 07:35 PM
Giddy! I've settled into the idea of shooting 90% ProRes (due to storage budget and things), and this just makes me happy to have done so!

Nearly vomit educing excitement!

mhood
06-17-2012, 07:43 PM
How does 709 look? :D

nickjbedford
06-17-2012, 07:54 PM
Nearly vomit educing excitement!

Sit down, head forward, breathe. Breathe! Here's some salty chips ;)

Tom
06-17-2012, 08:00 PM
Sit down, head forward, breathe. Breathe! Here's some salty chips ;)

haha my stomach actually growled when I read that.

On a serious note, Its good to hear of an indication as to how good the ProRes footage looks, just like Nick said, I think I will also probably film more in ProRes than Raw, at least until I purchase more SSD's ;-)

Paul Stephen Edwards
06-17-2012, 08:08 PM
On a serious note, Its good to hear of an indication as to how good the ProRes footage looks, just like Nick said, I think I will also probably film more in ProRes than Raw, at least until I purchase more SSD's ;-)

I won't have to upgrade my system immediately. YES!!!

P.S. Salty chips are always welcome.

Philip Lipetz
06-17-2012, 08:14 PM
Jumped out of chair, hugged wife, and started to dance.

One tweet says over 7000 advance orders. Hope our team's two spots at a major house hold up. Another rumor says all distributors get 10 units irregardless of total order. Hope ordering from major pro supply house will not backfire.

Philip Lipetz
06-17-2012, 08:26 PM
another Tweet from john Brawley @brawlster

What's awesome about the log ProRes clips is that they have an awful lot of range in the grade.
17 Jun

Dan Pears
06-18-2012, 12:43 AM
Word

laco
06-18-2012, 01:06 AM
John was shooting an ARRIRAW-ProRes comparison. If this will be the """"difference"""" between the raw, and prores, a lot of us will stick to prores:)

https://vimeo.com/34398567

ryaninoz
06-18-2012, 01:21 AM
this is exciting, now for some samples ! Will the pro res footage be easy to work with for quick edits in fcp in terms of grading or does everything need to be graded in resolve ?

laco
06-18-2012, 01:58 AM
this is exciting, now for some samples ! Will the pro res footage be easy to work with for quick edits in fcp in terms of grading or does everything need to be graded in resolve ?

If you shoot to Prores with the Video gamma, you will be able to grade it nicely in FCP.
If you shoot to Prores with the Log gamma, you will need to apply - somewhere in the chain - a LUT (Look-up table). This is easy in Resolve, not that easy in a NLE:)

In Resolve you can choose where in the node graph would you like to apply the LUT. This is important when grading a LOG image.

rommex
06-18-2012, 05:03 AM
This is easy in Resolve, not that easy in a NLE:)

I

There is a free plug in LUT Buddy. In Premiere it's easy as in Resolve) )

laco
06-18-2012, 05:27 AM
There is a free plug in LUT Buddy. In Premiere it's easy as in Resolve) )

Not that much... When you apply a REC709 LUT it means that in the signal chain you apple a video gamma, where details are lost.
So if you want to bring back some details from the sky you will need to apply a grade BEFORE the LUT.

But if you want to grade with adjusting the lift/gamma/gain controls, or key something, you want to apply that correction AFTER the LUT.

Of course maybe you can simply add you grading before/after the LUT Buddy in Premiere, but I don't know how it works:)
But for a quick/easy grade, you're right. You will record in Prores log, apply LUT Buddy (which is free!:), and than apply you're grading effect.

Philip Lipetz
06-18-2012, 06:18 AM
There is a free plug in LUT Buddy. In Premiere it's easy as in Resolve) )

LUT Buddy does not work with FCPX, and The BMCC metadata flow is designed for FCPX.

mhood
06-18-2012, 06:46 AM
I am bothered by all the Mac centricity of the BMC. Are we being "nudged" on to MacBook Pros with FCPX? It's disconcerting for a vidiot like myself who is 100% Windows...portable...Premiere Pro. Beyond the ThunderBolt problem, what other gotchas await?

LUT Buddy and Colorista Free sound like godsends for my portable PPro CS5 (CS6 coming) workflow. I've been hoping for a quick easy method for using ProResHQ log files. These two free Magic Bullet tools from Red Giant sure sound like the ticket...but as usual, I'm probably missing something.

;-)

John Brawley
06-18-2012, 07:46 AM
John was shooting an ARRIRAW-ProRes comparison. If this will be the """"difference"""" between the raw, and prores, a lot of us will stick to prores:)


To be very clear. This clip was for an entirely different project, and not anything to do with BMD.

jb

laco
06-18-2012, 08:07 AM
To be very clear. This clip was for an entirely different project, and not anything to do with BMD.

jb

Yes I too wanted to emphasize this.
But it could be a good example if someone wants to see what's the difference between Prores recorded with the Alexa, and ArriRAW. And watching both on vimeo.

manakiin
06-18-2012, 08:17 AM
Beyond the ThunderBolt problem, what other gotchas await?

What is the ThunderBolt problem?

mhood
06-18-2012, 08:23 AM
What is the ThunderBolt problem?

That it pretty much doesn't exist on Windows laptops. I *must* use Lenovo machines and the only one coming soon with ThunderBolt is lacking in RAM and display and won't work for UltraScopes (as I understand it). I'm just going to have to use my BMC without the ThunderBolt function(s) until something develops. Who knows how long that will be...

John Brawley
06-18-2012, 08:24 AM
I am bothered by all the Mac centricity of the BMC. Are we being "nudged" on to MacBook Pros with FCPX? It's disconcerting for a vidiot like myself who is 100% Windows...portable...Premiere Pro. Beyond the ThunderBolt problem, what other gotchas await?



BMD is a mac centric company. There's no point being bothered by it. That's their core strength. You're being nudged because that's what they know. That's where they've made their sales. That's their heritage. That's their identify. If it wasn't for FCP, they wouldn't exist as a company. It's idiotic to say that they are mac centric when that has been the very lifeblood of their existence. For as many that are bothered, there will be as many that are pleased.

BMD were, I believe the first company in the world to release a Thunderbolt peripheral.

I know there are many that are going to not want t use mac, and there are ways to do it. It's kind of proving a point though when you can see how the "mac" way works and the non mac way is harder work.....

jb

mhood
06-18-2012, 08:47 AM
BMD is a mac centric company ... It's idiotic to say that they are mac centric when that has been the very lifeblood of their existence. For as many that are bothered, there will be as many that are pleased.

They seem to have set their sights a bit higher than the 5.11% market share with the BMC. It's a camera not a computer...another pretty obvious observation. It seems trivial to design a camera that is platform agnostic to this moron...yet they don't seem to have missed many opportunities to make the BMC platform specific (i.e., SSD format). I wouldn't be as bothered by the idiocity if I weren't required to operate on a Windows portable platform. I know...a personal problem...but there's nothing I can do about it. I also missed the part where the BMC was described as a Mac peripheral.

:-)

stip
06-18-2012, 09:00 AM
I don't care, but they should really, really, really, really, really make sure that there are reasonable workarounds for PC users.

nicolas
06-18-2012, 09:04 AM
A lot of mac user with older machines doesn't have access to Thunderbolt either. So the only difference between Mac or PC's are just installing Macdrive or a free alternative. Seems pretty simple to me, and once it all setup it should be pretty transparent.

stip
06-18-2012, 09:50 AM
seems pretty simple, yes, but I had some issues with Macdrive and others in the past and I would want a 100% stable solution for offloading and formatting media in the field. well, we'll see.

laco
06-18-2012, 09:59 AM
seems pretty simple, yes, but I had some issues with Macdrive and others in the past and I would want a 100% stable solution for offloading and formatting media in the field. well, we'll see.

if you want a 100% solution, it seems it needs to be a mac.
If you want 95%, Macdrive should do it:)

t.p.
06-18-2012, 02:35 PM
i agree with the claims that a camera shouldnt be a operating system oriented and join the claim that BMCC is indeed mac centric, it should be available for all platforms and OS , it doesnt matter if blackmagic has been born and built upon an integration to FCP or not , in manufacturing a camera you should think of all platfroms , and to prove they thought about this issue - is the simple prove they provided the camera with prores AND avid DNxHD codec do they clearly had this in mind

but its clear to see that they tint to apple approach and integration - ultrascope doesnt work on pc , da vinci resolve (i surely hope does work on windows) ,
the thunderbolt cables are only manufactured right now by apple , the ssd should be formatted only on apple computers , thunderbolt is just now being implemented to pc after a year that only apple held this technology to themselfs , although it was developed by intel

rommex
06-18-2012, 03:42 PM
I tend to agree t.p. On the BMD site it says nothing about the necessity of mac for bmcc. Why should I read someone's hidden thoughts?

I'm also a happy owner of high-end digital back by Phase One. They first were very mac oriented in their Capture One software. I mean a lot of cool features were mac-exclusive and pc design was really ugly. But they quickly changed: now the software goes hand in hand for both platforms.

BMD may have drunk the mac milk during their start and growth, but as they step into the CAMERA business, I hope they will expand their view. It's not a matter of someone's persuading them, it's simply marketing.

rommex
06-18-2012, 03:44 PM
and yes, davinci resolve does work on pc platform perfectly)

Frank Glencairn
06-18-2012, 03:54 PM
And all of their hardware, I might add.

nyvz
06-20-2012, 01:19 AM
if you want a 100% solution, it seems it needs to be a mac.
If you want 95%, Macdrive should do it:)

I've had occasional issues with Macdrive and with MacOS, neither are 100% nor are most things. As with most software, stability varies in both depending on the version and usage. Generally I've been quite happy with macdrive in windows, and it certainly beats NTFS support in MacOS.

fahnon
06-21-2012, 11:26 AM
My problem is that I have a macbook with neither USB3 nor Thunderbolt. That means it's too slow to offload footage to and I need to buy a new machine which adds at least $400-$500 to my costs even if I cheap out and buy a low end windows laptop... Anyone know of a way to just transfer the footage to a hard drive without a host PC/Mac?

Macalincag
06-21-2012, 11:52 AM
Anyone know of a way to just transfer the footage to a hard drive without a host PC/Mac?

Threads getting way off-topic, but I'll answer anyway. Suppose there is a magical way to transfer footage directly from the camera to an HDD without a host, which there isn't. Are you going to edit/grade/deliver etc. without a host PC/Mac too? Just do everything with an HDD? If you're getting/considering this camera, you have to acknowledge the essential tools needed to go along with this camera. It would be a real shame for one to buy this camera and not be able to do Post with it, which this camera strongly calls for.

So yes, you need to shell out extra money if you're not already prepared for it ($400-$500 isn't going to get you far, btw). Either that or know someone who is to collaborate with. It sucks, but it's the truth.

mhood
06-21-2012, 11:59 AM
IDK...ProRes will edit on lots of machines won't it? SSD docks exist for everything from FW to USB2.0 to eSATA don't they? Once you get your footage on your editing machine's HD, it's business as usual with ProResHQ, right? Not everyone is going to be doing the raw song and dance right away. I plan to grow into raw in no rush at all.

stip
06-21-2012, 12:08 PM
My problem is that I have a macbook with neither USB3 nor Thunderbolt.

something like this should work (together with a simple SSD eSata dockingstation)

http://www.caldigit.com/FASTA-1ex.asp

Macalincag
06-21-2012, 12:11 PM
SSD docks exist for everything from FW to USB2.0 to eSATA don't they?

Yes, and we have a useful topic all about SSD caddies: http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?200-Recommend-an-SSD-Caddy

But he's talking about putting files onto an HDD without a host computer. He sure as hell can implement a proxy workflow though... gonna have to.

stip
06-21-2012, 12:18 PM
But he's talking about putting files onto an HDD without a host computer.

there are dockingstations for 2 HDDs that have a cloning function, simply press a button, but you cannot add new data to a disc that already has footage on it as it will overwrite it. I don't know if these exist for SSDs, I only know that there are dockingstations that support both SSD and HDD.

Macalincag
06-21-2012, 12:36 PM
but you cannot add new data to a disc that already has footage on it as it will overwrite it.

And this is why it is a very bad idea :-)

I am familiar with those types of docking stations though. They're really useful if your current boot drive is completely full and you want to upgrade to a larger drive using the same exact content.

fahnon
06-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Threads getting way off-topic, but I'll answer anyway. Suppose there is a magical way to transfer footage directly from the camera to an HDD without a host, which there isn't. Are you going to edit/grade/deliver etc. without a host PC/Mac too? Just do everything with an HDD? If you're getting/considering this camera, you have to acknowledge the essential tools needed to go along with this camera. It would be a real shame for one to buy this camera and not be able to do Post with it, which this camera strongly calls for.

So yes, you need to shell out extra money if you're not already prepared for it ($400-$500 isn't going to get you far, btw). Either that or know someone who is to collaborate with. It sucks, but it's the truth.

Who said anything about editing or grading? The problem offloading in the field. The USB2 on my Macbook is presumably too slow to get the footage off the camera with no downtime if I only have 2 drives. All that is needed to get that footage off is any laptop with usb3 or thunderbolt and $500 absolutely can get that job done. Check this out:

$400 USB 3.0 Laptop (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1882713&srkey=H25-156100)
$135 USB 3.0 2TB HDD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822154480)

That was a quick search I'm sure I can go lower with some real research. Of course it may be cheaper for me to buy another SSD or two and just deal with USB2 speeds...

fahnon
06-21-2012, 02:16 PM
something like this should work (together with a simple SSD eSata dockingstation)

http://www.caldigit.com/FASTA-1ex.asp

Good find, but I have a macbook, not the Pro, so there is no slot for this. I just realised that I can probably use a firewire caddy which should be faster than USB2.

laco
06-21-2012, 03:04 PM
I thing the main thing is to find a caddy that is bus-powered.
Have you find any good quality caddy, that works with 2.5" SSD, and has usb3, or FW800 connectors?

John Brawley
06-21-2012, 03:24 PM
My problem is that I have a macbook with neither USB3 nor Thunderbolt. That means it's too slow to offload footage to and I need to buy a new machine which adds at least $400-$500 to my costs even if I cheap out and buy a low end windows laptop... Anyone know of a way to just transfer the footage to a hard drive without a host PC/Mac?


Thunderbolt is not a requirement for downloading footage.

You can easily use any SSD to --> whatever connection to mount the drives.

You can't even directly connect thunderbolt to the camera for data yet. it only works for Ultrascope.

Cmon guys, I was hearing the same moaning about firewire when it first came out as well. It's not a deal breaker and doesn't even really affect how things work not he camera directly anyway. You don't NEED thunderbolt for mounting an SSD. You also don't need a camera.

jb

nickjbedford
06-21-2012, 03:42 PM
I went and upgraded to a MacBook Air 11" for the Thunderbolt and USB 3. Love this little razor sharp machine.

fahnon
06-21-2012, 04:20 PM
Thunderbolt is not a requirement for downloading footage.

You can easily use any SSD to --> whatever connection to mount the drives.

You can't even directly connect thunderbolt to the camera for data yet. it only works for Ultrascope.

Cmon guys, I was hearing the same moaning about firewire when it first came out as well. It's not a deal breaker and doesn't even really affect how things work not he camera directly anyway. You don't NEED thunderbolt for mounting an SSD. You also don't need a camera.

jb

Never meant to imply you needed thunderbolt (or even usb3) to transfer footage, only thay it will take forever if you dont use one of those. I'm imagining transferring hundreds of gigs over usb2, possibly having downtime simply waiting for the transfer to finish and I'm trying to work around it. It's something that has to be planned for...

Gobhoblin
06-21-2012, 06:10 PM
Thunderbolt is not a requirement for downloading footage.
You can't even directly connect thunderbolt to the camera for data yet. it only works for Ultrascope.

I hope that changes pretty soon.

Not that it's a deal-breaker, but it would be very handy to have.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
06-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Good find, but I have a macbook, not the Pro, so there is no slot for this. I just realised that I can probably use a firewire caddy which should be faster than USB2.

In actual use Firewire 800 is way, way faster than USB 2 on a Mac. Reason being is that the FW800 implementation on a Mac is much better than the USB 2 implementation on the same machine. Mac USB 2 is dog slow.

If your MacBook doesn't have T-Bolt, an ExpressCard34 slot, or USB 3, use FW800.

If you weren't already planning on shooting ProRes HQ (especially log), consider that it's likely to look very good out of the BMCC. Compared to BMCC RAW files, ProRes HQ requires far less transfer time, storage space, and disk speed, including for backups.

mhood
06-21-2012, 07:40 PM
I thing the main thing is to find a caddy that is bus-powered.
Have you find any good quality caddy, that works with 2.5" SSD, and has usb3, or FW800 connectors?

That's a good point for we portable folks. I know USB will power but will eSata and FW?

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
06-21-2012, 07:59 PM
That's a good point for we portable folks. I know USB will power but will eSata and FW?

USB & FW supply bus power, but eSATA doesn't.

As a temporary solution for when I need to transfer files under battery power from the SSD to my older MacBook Pro (which has a ExpressCard34 slot & FW800, but not T-Bolt), I bought one of these empty external enclosures and took the outer case off to use as a occasional "caddie" that can use the MBP battery as the sole power source:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MEQM0GBK/

It includes cables for eSATA (which I use with an eSATA card in my MBP's ExpressCard34 slot) and FW800. The eSATA card I'm using is this one:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet%20Technologies/SATA6PRO2E34/

The enclosure gets its power from the MBP's FW800 port while it does its data transfer via the eSATA cable at SATA II speeds (faster than FW800). Works just fine.

When a battery-operable >SATA II speed eSATA caddie becomes available (if ever), I'll get one of those. But in the meantime this is one approach. YMMV.

laco
06-22-2012, 01:40 AM
Never meant to imply you needed thunderbolt (or even usb3) to transfer footage, only thay it will take forever if you dont use one of those. I'm imagining transferring hundreds of gigs over usb2, possibly having downtime simply waiting for the transfer to finish and I'm trying to work around it. It's something that has to be planned for...

No need to wait for transfers if you buy 1-2 more SSDs, or invest in a thunderbolt caddy+macbook.
This camera costs $3000 so you'll have a lot to buy the things that you need for it.

laco
06-22-2012, 01:41 AM
USB & FW supply bus power, but eSATA doesn't.

As a temporary solution for when I need to transfer files from the SSD to my older MacBook Pro (which has a ExpressCard34 slot & FW800, but not T-Bolt) under battery power only, I bought one of these empty external enclosures and took the outer case off to use as a occasional battery operable "caddie":
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MEQM0GBK/

This one looks good!
Is it easy to change the ssd inside this one?

Frank Glencairn
06-22-2012, 04:12 AM
More beachin tweets: https://twitter.com/brawlster/status/216095108486017024/photo/1

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
06-22-2012, 04:49 AM
This one looks good! Is it easy to change the ssd inside this one?

The SSD (or any standard 2.5" drive) slides on/off the connector inside the enclosure. Easy to do.

I put some black electrical tape on the too-sharp inside edges of the case (see photos).

216
217

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
06-22-2012, 05:03 AM
More beachin tweets: https://twitter.com/brawlster/status/216095108486017024/photo/1

No dual cup holder on that tripod though. JB is slack'n off. ;-)

EDIT: As seen here, when he was using a less-expensive rig (not!):
http://twitter.com/brawlster/status/215676018164371456/photo/1

nickjbedford
06-22-2012, 05:15 AM
No dual cup holder on that tripod though. JB is slack'n off. ;-)

New rig accessory!

Abobakr
06-22-2012, 06:25 AM
I went and upgraded to a MacBook Air 11" for the Thunderbolt and USB 3. Love this little razor sharp machine.

I'm a PC guy.. but I'm thinking to get a Macbook Air for its Thunderbolt, I want to use it with Ultrascope!!

dwaisman
06-22-2012, 08:13 AM
just wait a little longer. Several PC systems have been announced with Thunderbolt for this year.

mhood
06-22-2012, 08:22 AM
just wait a little longer. Several PC systems have been announced with Thunderbolt for this year.

I thought I read that UltraScopes requires a 1920x1080 display to show all of the scopes at once. If that is so, the new Lenovo Edge that's coming with ThunderBolt doesn't qualify. I hope I'm confused...any enlightenment?

laco
06-22-2012, 08:47 AM
I thought I read that UltraScopes requires a 1920x1080 display to show all of the scopes at once. If that is so, the new Lenovo Edge that's coming with ThunderBolt doesn't qualify. I hope I'm confused...any enlightenment?

Yes, you're right, you need at lest 1920x1080, or 1920x1200 to display all the six windows of the Ultrascope.
If you have a lower resolution display, you can only display two windows.

mhood
06-22-2012, 09:03 AM
Yes, you're right, you need at lest 1920x1080, or 1920x1200 to display all the six windows of the Ultrascope.
If you have a lower resolution display, you can only display two windows.

...just goes to show you my little Roseanne Roseannadanna, it is ALWAYS something.

Macalincag
06-22-2012, 09:08 AM
you need at lest 1920x1080, or 1920x1200 to display all the six windows of the Ultrascope.

Let's hope the W700 proves to be quite useful.

http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?307-Windows-8-Thunderbolt-Tablets

Gobhoblin
06-22-2012, 11:57 AM
Yes, you're right, you need at lest 1920x1080, or 1920x1200 to display all the six windows of the Ultrascope.
If you have a lower resolution display, you can only display two windows.

Are you sure this is the case with the current version?

laco
06-22-2012, 12:30 PM
Are you sure this is the case with the current version?

yep: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail/supportnotes/supportnote/?sid=3956&pid=4022&os=win&isSDK=0&snid=6333

fahnon
06-22-2012, 12:51 PM
No need to wait for transfers if you buy 1-2 more SSDs, or invest in a thunderbolt caddy+macbook.
This camera costs $3000 so you'll have a lot to buy the things that you need for it.

Ha! Maybe you will, but I won't...

This is for personal projects, so I finance with my own salary and I live in NYC with no roomates or spouse. I sacrifice to buy gear because I love doing this and when my name is on something it has to be the best I can afford to make it. It's a lot of gear for the money (why I'm buying it), but let's not act as if this isn't a lot of money for most individuals.

Having said that, getting a FW400 caddy (my macbook doesnt have 800) and one extra SSD should do it for me. If it doesn't I'll have to shoot ProRes until I can grab a new laptop.

laco
06-22-2012, 01:05 PM
Ha! Maybe you will, but I won't...

This is for personal projects, so I finance with my own salary and I live in NYC with no roomates or spouse. I sacrifice to buy gear because I love doing this and when my name is on something it has to be the best I can afford to make it. It's a lot of gear for the money (why I'm buying it), but let's not act as if this isn't a lot of money for most individuals.

Having said that, getting a FW400 caddy (my macbook doesnt have 800) and one extra SSD should do it for me. If it doesn't I'll have to shoot ProRes until I can grab a new laptop.

I understand it, but even if this camera is much cheaper than it "should be", we won't be getting the accessories cheaper. External monitors, viewfinders, rods, v-mount batteries, SSDs, HDDs for backup, good quality lenses are still expensive.

Anyway we'll see what's the minimal setup with this camera:)

mhood
06-22-2012, 01:08 PM
I hope to pull my 7D body out of my rig, put the DAR in the closet to gather dust, buy some XLR female to male 1/4 phono cables and plug the BMC body into my rig. I can dream can't I? :-)

fahnon
06-22-2012, 01:47 PM
I understand it, but even if this camera is much cheaper than it "should be", we won't be getting the accessories cheaper. External monitors, viewfinders, rods, v-mount batteries, SSDs, HDDs for backup, good quality lenses are still expensive.

Anyway we'll see what's the minimal setup with this camera:)

I'm hoping to get away with SSDs, a 2TB external HDD, a loupe style viewfinder and a battery belt. Everything else I can use from my 7D. That's why I'm actually glad about it using Canon glass. I don't have to start over there (already picked up the Tokina 11-16 in anticipation).

Abobakr
06-22-2012, 03:00 PM
yep: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail/supportnotes/supportnote/?sid=3956&pid=4022&os=win&isSDK=0&snid=6333

dam!! I didn't read the specs.. I admired the Macbook Air for its thin size and it light weight but too bad, it is only 1440x900..

laco
06-22-2012, 03:22 PM
dam!! I didn't read the specs.. I admired the Macbook Air for its thin size and it light weight but too bad, it is only 1440x900..

yep..sadly.
The other thing is that - it's just speculation - but on the normal Ultrascope you need a GPU with a high texture fill rate to be able to display the scopes with no latency.
I don't know what will be the case with the BMC, but don't jump too early on a train until we hear more about this one.

Abobakr
06-22-2012, 03:49 PM
yep..sadly.
The other thing is that - it's just speculation - but on the normal Ultrascope you need a GPU with a high texture fill rate to be able to display the scopes with no latency.
I don't know what will be the case with the BMC, but don't jump too early on a train until we hear more about this one.

Thanks laco.. Good thing you pointed out those details. I will not rush about it. I'm gonna wait now and see more about this.

laco
06-22-2012, 04:10 PM
Thanks laco.. Good thing you pointed out those details. I will not rush about it. I'm gonna wait now and see more about this.

me too.
Also - for exposure checking - I think an external monitor like the Tvlogic VFM, or the Marshalls are much better tools.
Ultrascope is a very-very good tool for post-production.

Abobakr
06-22-2012, 05:51 PM
me too.
Also - for exposure checking - I think an external monitor like the Tvlogic VFM, or the Marshalls are much better tools.

I see you are recommending the Tvlogic few times and went around did little search and watch couple of reviews and it is a kinda must have a tool kit for me.

laco
06-22-2012, 10:38 PM
I see you are recommending the Tvlogic few times and went around did little search and watch couple of reviews and it is a kinda must have a tool kit for me.

because it is!:)
It's a 1280x800 resolution on a 5.6" Display, one of the best LCD panels I've ever seen, picture quality is great.
And functions are endless. Focus peaking actually works...false color is great, and user adjustable, waveform is resizable, markers, Range error (like on the REDs), etcetc.
It is a very good company for the BMC for judging exposure.

funwithstuff
06-24-2012, 07:48 AM
Having said that, getting a FW400 caddy (my macbook doesnt have 800) and one extra SSD should do it for me. If it doesn't I'll have to shoot ProRes until I can grab a new laptop.

If you don't have FW800, your Mac is probably getting on the slow side. A Mac upgrade would make a big difference (even a cheaper model) if you can budget for it. FW400 is only a little faster than USB2 (~35MB/s vs ~30MB/s) while FW800 is much, much faster (>65MBs). Thunderbolt or USB3 will easily surpass spinning disks.

Consider getting a dock you can plug internal hard drives into, either a USB3 model (cheap) or a Voyager Q (USB2/FW800/FW400/eSATA) to future-proof yourself at least a little. When you get a better Mac, your external hard drives will be faster without needing a new case.