PDA

View Full Version : Rick Young BMCC Review - Not sure he's right about the dynamic-range claim



Simon Shasha
11-24-2012, 05:16 PM
I stumbled along this review: http://vimeo.com/54141436

I think he's incorrect when he says that you wont get 13-stops of dynamic-range when shooting ProRes on the BMCC - I'm sure the 13-stops are still retained - but it will depend on how you have exposed the shot.

Fluoro
11-24-2012, 05:55 PM
I stumbled along this review: http://vimeo.com/54141436


Obviously aimed at the beginner but there were some nice observations in there. I enjoyed watching the night shots being recovered- wow! Good point about charging the battery as you walk from location to location and that the internal battery is a good solution. Obviously this is not something for every kind of shoot but it shows how you can have a minimal kit for "street videography".

Also really liked the shots taken from the London Eye especially tho one at 12.57.

1672


I think he's incorrect when he says that you wont get 13-stops of dynamic-range when shooting ProRes on the BMCC - I'm sure the 13-stops are still retained - but it will depend on how you have exposed the shot.

I'm sure I've read a couple of times, including from John Brawley that it's not quite 13 stops when in prores.

Matthew Bennett
11-24-2012, 09:11 PM
Wow, I like these battery options. Looking good.

dustylense
11-24-2012, 09:52 PM
Wow, I like these battery options. Looking good.
+1. Those battery options are great!

Liam
11-24-2012, 11:43 PM
For those who have heard me talk about my cheap battery solution before, it's essentially the exact same as that, but instead of buying a DV-type battery, you buy a cheap 12-volt battery from an electrical store (Jaycar, for aussies) they'll attach a cable to it and you can charge it through any positive/negative charger, I have a car battery charger that'll charge it and off we go.

I'm also looking at the Ikan mount to put on top of the camera, because with mine you have to do what Rick was doing and place it somewhere other than mounting it conveniently on top of the camera.

I applaud Rick, he is an open minded realist, he know's that these cameras are all just tools but he also realizes what a lot of us do, that the BMC will adapt to many different shooting styles.

theois
11-25-2012, 05:29 AM
Anyone else notice the black spots in the car headlights around 1.32?

Is this the camera sensor or the grade??

1673

bowman
11-25-2012, 05:57 AM
I thought this review of 15 minutes was spectacularly un-useful. Good he highlighted that the battery can be charged on the go, but really that's just common sense it's all the Pros here suggesting massive batteries on rigs that got people thinking you couldn't in the first place. His main review seemed to be how to unscrew a lens...hmm helpful.

And he obvious hasn't been following the use of this camera or he would of mentioned the Sigma 8-16mm over a Fisheye! If he was going to show how the common guy would use the camera then he should of at least tested IS on the Canon lenses.

Sorry to be cruel but he the kind of guy that shots trains at stations for fun, I'm unlikely to respect his opinion at the end of the video that suggests the BMC is just another camera like the Sony...

jaybirch
11-25-2012, 07:11 AM
I'm unlikely to respect his opinion at the end of the video that suggests the BMC is just another camera like the Sony...

What is it then, the be all, end all camera? Of course it is just another tool. If someone asks you for an ultra, ultra wide shot of something, the BMCC is not the tool for the job. If someone asks you to shoot an event with autofocus, the BMCC is not the tool for the job.

Anyway.... some nice shots in there... and interesting points about the battery.

Jtorrents
11-25-2012, 07:44 AM
I thought this review of 15 minutes was spectacularly un-useful. Good he highlighted that the battery can be charged on the go, but really that's just common sense it's all the Pros here suggesting massive batteries on rigs that got people thinking you couldn't in the first place. His main review seemed to be how to unscrew a lens...hmm helpful.

And he obvious hasn't been following the use of this camera or he would of mentioned the Sigma 8-16mm over a Fisheye! If he was going to show how the common guy would use the camera then he should of at least tested IS on the Canon lenses.

Sorry to be cruel but he the kind of guy that shots trains at stations for fun, I'm unlikely to respect his opinion at the end of the video that suggests the BMC is just another camera like the Sony...

I hope you don't find me cruel but I think that your post is a little disrespectful.

Fergus
11-25-2012, 08:32 AM
there are some very rude folks on here. give the guy a break - the more we can see of the camera the better and the battery solutions were good to see.

bowman
11-25-2012, 09:58 AM
I hope you don't find me cruel but I think that your post is a little disrespectful.


Look he has set himself up as a reviewer of cameras and expert blogger earning money I'm sure from advertising and camera company freebies I have a right to question what he says and his ability in judging creative tools, if that gets a little personal in judgement of him as a type of creative person then so be it.


I don't remember Bloom getting much love on here recently....

Roman
11-25-2012, 10:04 AM
I liked it, and found the battery bit to be informative. And I'll never turn down BMC footage, despite what it is... geez lighten up.

Steve Kahn
11-25-2012, 10:32 AM
I liked it as well. It was entertaining and I love seeing more footage - especially the wonderful color corrected night shots.

That being said though this is being marketed as a cinema camera and as the majority of cinema is centered around people I'd love to see human faces shot in various lighting situations most especially harsh ones.

jaybirch
11-25-2012, 11:02 AM
Look he has set himself up as a reviewer of cameras and expert blogger earning money

Did you pay money to view this video? Did you have to view countless banner ads?

The entitlement of this generation is insane

bowman
11-25-2012, 11:34 AM
Did you pay money to view this video? Did you have to view countless banner ads?

The entitlement of this generation is insane


I would say the blindly accepting without questioning of anything we are told is way more insane. What generation are you talking about, as you don't know my age?


Seriously the review was retreading of what we have known for months with some silly things like using a fish eye as your only way to get a wide shot. Seriously I'm glad I'm being a little critical now just to balance things out. This is making me seem way more critical than I was. I just think it wasn't much of a review.

jaybirch
11-25-2012, 11:53 AM
I mean the internet generation.... I don't care if you are 90 years old.... People like you already drove away Philip Bloom and that company that did the fashion shoot... just because you think you are owed some kind of hollywood production with every review.

I didn't see any mention of it being anything more than the guy's thoughts on the camera.... If it had been billed as "Everything you will ever need to know" and charged $20 to view.. I might understand.

As it stands, you are just whining because you knew the info on offer... Well done you. I didn't know the battery could be charged in standby from a D-Tap... So i'm more than happy the guy took the time out to make this.

bowman
11-25-2012, 12:02 PM
I mean the internet generation.... I don't care if you are 90 years old.... People like you already drove away Philip Bloom and that company that did the fashion shoot... just because you think you are owed some kind of hollywood production with every review.

I didn't see any mention of it being anything more than the guy's thoughts on the camera.... If it had been billed as "Everything you will ever need to know" and charged $20 to view.. I might understand.

As it stands, you are just whining because you knew the info on offer... Well done you. I didn't know the battery could be charged in standby from a D-Tap... So i'm more than happy the guy took the time out to make this.


I'm sure your not into censorship and the right to someone having an opinion right?

Then why are you disagreeing with me while annoyed I disagreed with someone else. You seem confused, that a forum is not a place of discussion but a place all agree and collectively like stuff.


and you also way off on Bloom, I have countless times supported his input and said people we stupid to attack his documentary on the way they did, check my posts if you want.

I'm sorry I can't agree with you however comfortable that might make you feel.


Why don't you attack my opinion based on his review instead. First question do you think he was right to say a fisheye is the secret weapon to get wides? Is he right to make an issue of the DR with ProRes? Did he cover major issues like rolling shutter? was he right to put a cinema camera on the same level as most other video cameras like the Sony he mentioned "plugged", Misleading?...

And what right have you got to say someone is whining if they have a different opinion to someone else?

matt garrett
11-25-2012, 12:26 PM
I really don't get the 8-16.
I'd much rather have the 11-16 and have an image at 11 I can use and at 2.8!
The Nikon > Canon adapter does seem a bit basic and non BMC centric. Took a good bit of time in the review.
The non corrected to corrected footage seemed misleading too. The non corrected seemed to be at a different iso
Or crushed instead of flat like you would get with a raw image. Makes the cc'ed image out to be a hero when it was really all there from the start.

AEMIKEA
11-25-2012, 12:40 PM
I think that we should all be entitled to opinions, it is obviously very healthy. I do also believe that a message can be conveyed without coming across as condescending. Your post did that for me, just my opinion. Do I think it to be intentional? I don't know you, so I cannot say. When someone takes the time, and the original poster obviously took a lot of time to put this together and provided some nice footage from a camera almost nobody has available to them, I find it a treat. It appears to me his only motivation is to get some footage out there for the masses and some of his own pearls of wisdom. I just purchased a C100...been on this board and DVINFO.net for a lot of years and my first thought was to try to shoot some footage with it to get it out for others to get a look at it for themselves, maybe post some raw clips for them to mess with. My point is I think most of us post stuff like this on these boards with an unselfish heart. I think we should be respectful even when disagreeing and just be thankful when people post things. Regardless of what I think, someone most likely put a lot of heart into something before posting, I do not in any way want to discourage that.

AEMIKEA
11-25-2012, 12:44 PM
I stumbled along this review: http://vimeo.com/54141436

I think he's incorrect when he says that you wont get 13-stops of dynamic-range when shooting ProRes on the BMCC - I'm sure the 13-stops are still retained - but it will depend on how you have exposed the shot.

After reviewing the video I think his point is if you shoot in PRORES, your editing in post could be limited, he also said he was not sure if it would be, my guess is it would be, PRORES as nice as it is "aint" RAW:)

jaybirch
11-25-2012, 01:37 PM
First question do you think he was right to say a fisheye is the secret weapon to get wides? Is he right to make an issue of the DR with ProRes? Did he cover major issues like rolling shutter? was he right to put a cinema camera on the same level as most other video cameras like the Sony he mentioned "plugged", Misleading?...

Maybe he meant that is the best way to get a wide shot with the lenses he had

John Brawley has already mention DR wont be as wide with ProRes

His video is titled "Canon and Nikon lens tests, using external batteries"... Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, he was right.... The F3 he talks about has similar DR (with S-Log) produces a fantastic 1080p image, has better low light, has more colour info and can do 4:4:4 10bit 60P with an s35 imager (using an external recorder). I'd happily make a feature with it. Spike Lee did.

jaybirch
11-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Part 1 is here... for those that haven't seen it:

http://vimeo.com/48431007

teh
11-25-2012, 03:20 PM
I actually think the battery solutions he showed us were very interesting! Does anyone know which products he was showing us?

Simon Shasha
11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
I still think you get the 13-stops in ProRes, it's just limited to a 10bit colour-space.

Perhaps John can come in and clear this up in detail. It's come up a few times here and there on a handful of threads.

Steve Kahn
11-25-2012, 04:43 PM
I really don't get the 8-16.

I have the MFT 7-14 and despite it being rather slow it is a fantastic lens with no barrel distortion. It was good to see the FOV of this lens as it is so close to the 7-14.

John Brawley
11-25-2012, 05:47 PM
You'll notice I've never ever said how many stops of dynamic range the camera has.

That's because, I really believe it's such a subjective measure. Everyone will have a different opinion as that what is noise and what is detail in the blacks. What is clipped and what is highlight detail. Then you get other semeiotic phrases like *useable stops* that mean nothing because, well...useable to who ??? Are they visable stops ? Are they useable to a computer ? To a colour corrector ? To a colourist ?

Everyone has a different way and opinion of measuring DR and what's claimed by most manufactures should be taken with a healthy grain of salty scepticism, including BMD.

There is a small difference between what the ProRes will capture and what the RAW will capture in DR. This is simply because you're squeezing the same DR into fewer bits, recorded as LOG and then compressing.

Invariably, when you *decompress* a LOG image, you make choices about how it looks and where to put blacks. Because it's LOG and because it's 10 bit and because it's compressed, you'll never have the same *resolution* as the RAW. I'm not talking about pixel resolution, but dynamic range resolution.

So when we talk about ProRes not having the same DR, it's more because of these factors than anything else.

You get the same idiotic arguments over Marcos comparison where some were saying that you can get the same DR from an 8 BIT .264 camera because all the DR is mapped to a lesser amount of bits but if you were to expose it perfectly it would be the same.

Well.....try actually using it or grading and see how far that argument will get you....

Again though, you could technically argue the 8 bit camera is recording the same DR....but reality will bite....

Numbers are so vexing and we are in the image making game after all....not the number comparison game....

jb

bowman
11-25-2012, 06:01 PM
I really don't get the 8-16.
I'd much rather have the 11-16 and have an image at 11 I can use and at 2.8!
The Nikon > Canon adapter does seem a bit basic and non BMC centric. Took a good bit of time in the review.
The non corrected to corrected footage seemed misleading too. The non corrected seemed to be at a different iso
Or crushed instead of flat like you would get with a raw image. Makes the cc'ed image out to be a hero when it was really all there from the start.


What's not to get about the Sigma 8-16mm it's noticeably wider than the Tokina, it keeps lines striaght and for most wide shots you really don't need to be fast in my opinion.

Fluoro
11-25-2012, 06:37 PM
I think that we should all be entitled to opinions, it is obviously very healthy. I do also believe that a message can be conveyed without coming across as condescending. Your post did that for me, just my opinion. Do I think it to be intentional? I don't know you, so I cannot say. When someone takes the time, and the original poster obviously took a lot of time to put this together and provided some nice footage from a camera almost nobody has available to them, I find it a treat. It appears to me his only motivation is to get some footage out there for the masses and some of his own pearls of wisdom. I just purchased a C100...been on this board and DVINFO.net for a lot of years and my first thought was to try to shoot some footage with it to get it out for others to get a look at it for themselves, maybe post some raw clips for them to mess with. My point is I think most of us post stuff like this on these boards with an unselfish heart. I think we should be respectful even when disagreeing and just be thankful when people post things. Regardless of what I think, someone most likely put a lot of heart into something before posting, I do not in any way want to discourage that.

I like the way you think.

Liam
11-25-2012, 08:46 PM
I really don't get the 8-16.

One has to remember the 2.3x crop, meaning that the 8mm is now (FF Equiv) of 18mm and the 11 (FF Equiv) is now 25mm, pretty big difference.

nickjbedford
11-25-2012, 09:37 PM
John's right. It's less about hard numbers and more about how it feels to you or your colourist. I've never looked at a raw file and said, "If only I had 0.3 stops more dynamic range..."

The BMCC DR is wide, and ProRes captures it buts it doesn't offer the same level of control that raw does, simple as that. DSLR's have wide dynamic range... in raw, but their ultimate flaw is in the way they record video, which is what is important to us.

So you might say that DSLR's in video mode have only about 9 stops of "usable dynamic range" because the other 3 get pushed out of the video with tone curves and compression.

Granted, the ProRes with 12-13 odd stops in log is far better than any DSLR (except with the GH series on it's tail I guess). In either mode, the image you'll get is going to be very usable.

matt garrett
11-25-2012, 09:42 PM
16781679

So to s35mm equivalent to a 8mm on the blackmagic is a 13mm.
I know people use the 12mm on a little narrative and some music video but i think a 12mm (is what focal length they would really be renting) is RARE.
I also think the bowed edges on the sigma are very noticeable. I put it on the blackmagic and immediately took it off and swapped it for the 16-35mm. (the 11-16 was not available)
If you like that semi fisheye look and are only doing landscapes that's one thing but for a narrative I can never see myself using this.

Now, 11mm is like shooting on a 17mm s35. Right in between a 16-18mm. The normal Widest lens in a prime set.

I think once the mft mount becomes available a lot less people will be buying the 8-16.

bowman
11-26-2012, 12:33 AM
16781679

So to s35mm equivalent to a 8mm on the blackmagic is a 13mm.
I know people use the 12mm on a little narrative and some music video but i think a 12mm (is what focal length they would really be renting) is RARE.
I also think the bowed edges on the sigma are very noticeable. I put it on the blackmagic and immediately took it off and swapped it for the 16-35mm. (the 11-16 was not available)
If you like that semi fisheye look and are only doing landscapes that's one thing but for a narrative I can never see myself using this.

Now, 11mm is like shooting on a 17mm s35. Right in between a 16-18mm. The normal Widest lens in a prime set.

I think once the mft mount becomes available a lot less people will be buying the 8-16.


I plan to get the MFT and the Sigma even though i will get the 12mm magic slr. I dont know of any manual lenses that are wider than 12mm. That extra wide is useful in establishing shots. I think the stunning shots of the Tower from Philip Blooms doc in SA shows the beauty of having a wide like this in your kit. Its not expensive either.

matt garrett
11-26-2012, 12:45 AM
I think it works well in the ponte tower because the building is round.

Mattoid
11-26-2012, 01:32 AM
I have the MFT 7-14 and despite it being rather slow it is a fantastic lens with no barrel distortion. It was good to see the FOV of this lens as it is so close to the 7-14.

MFT cameras use automatic distortion correction which is why the 7-14 seems to have little distortion (-1.12% barrel). Without this correction it actually has quite significant distortion. (-5.24% barrel) http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/530-pana_714_4?start=1

Mattoid
11-26-2012, 01:58 AM
I was watching this thinking "wow the camera they are filming with looks good as well, maybe even better. Perhaps I should get that camera instead." So it made sense when he said it was an F3. A completely different price bracket, so the BMC holds up well.

I am always happy for extra footage but I think it is human to focus on the negative things rather than the positive, and quite satisfying to point them out.

I thought it was kind of stupid that he said to not use cheap adapters and then he went ahead and used them. I think what that really said was "its fine to use them, but I'm covering my back by telling you not to."

I also thought it was badly researched to talk about the canon 8-15mm fish-eye without mentioning the sigma 8-16mm rectilinear wide. People could easily get confused between the two as refering to lenses as 8-15 and 8-16 sounds very similar. This is bad because they are very different lenses: The canon fish eye is ok if you want a fish eye effect, but there is no avoiding that it is a fish eye. The sigma actually has very little distortion especially when you take the crop factor into account. Of course you always get perspective distortion with an ultra wide. That is just caused by cramming a large angle of view into a small frame.

bowman
11-26-2012, 01:59 AM
I think it works well in the ponte tower because the building is round.

also used by Bloom in his beach footage test, looked good to me.

bowman
11-26-2012, 02:01 AM
the MFT 7-14mm lens cant be used as far as I understand as its not manual....

Mattoid
11-26-2012, 02:32 AM
the MFT 7-14mm lens cant be used as far as I understand as its not manual....

That's true actually. Electronic aperture you can get around, but MFT is focus by wire as well. Unless you focused to infinity or hyperfocal on another camera and then switched it. I think there was a thread in the lens section that talked about this ages ago.

Fluoro
11-26-2012, 06:00 AM
I thought it was kind of stupid that he said to not use cheap adapters and then he went ahead and used them. I think what that really said was "its fine to use them, but I'm covering my back by telling you not to."

Or he bought some cheap ones and found out they were crap but has not bought new ones yet...

noirist
11-26-2012, 08:15 AM
Or he didn't want to get flamed by Nikon fanboys if his tests made the Nikon lenses look worse than the Canon lenses (which they didn't).

Or he bought some cheap ones and found out they were crap but has not bought new ones yet...

Steve Kahn
11-26-2012, 02:29 PM
That's true actually. Electronic aperture you can get around, but MFT is focus by wire as well. Unless you focused to infinity or hyperfocal on another camera and then switched it. I think there was a thread in the lens section that talked about this ages ago.

Damn it. You are right. I really hate these auto lenses. Oh well, guess my wide is the 11-16

bowman
11-26-2012, 03:12 PM
Damn it. You are right. I really hate these auto lenses. Oh well, guess my wide is the 11-16


No problem if that's your personal choice but I'm getting tired of the complete dismissal of the Sigma 8-16mm. Everyone it's a cheap, small, lens with nice optics whatever anyone tells you. It will get you considerably wider than a Tokina that everyone talks about ad the widest possible lens on here. You don't need a lens to be that fast when you need wide shots most of the time. Why is the Sigma constantly over looked?????

matt garrett
11-26-2012, 03:36 PM
Wide lenses are the lenses you need to be the fastest.
You can always walk lights in for your close ups but having a slow wide means you need bigger lights further away.

Kholi
11-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Wide lenses are the lenses you need to be the fastest.
You can always walk lights in for your close ups but having a slow wide means you need bigger lights further away.

Exactly. The 8-16 is just about unusable indoors without a fair amount of light on this camera, at least to me it is. If it were a 2.8 or so, then yeah let's go but this lens is too slow and honestly not very appealing at all.

The three mm or so wont' make that much of a difference, and the 11-16/2.8 just has a better overall look.

Maybe SLR will come around with a sub 12mm 2.8 prime though for good measure. =P

Steve Kahn
11-26-2012, 04:26 PM
Wide lenses are the lenses you need to be the fastest.
You can always walk lights in for your close ups but having a slow wide means you need bigger lights further away.
True but with how much detail has been brought out of the blacks with RAW I'm not sure have fast the wides need to be. That being said I do love shooting the f0.95 Voightlanders

Macielle
11-26-2012, 07:00 PM
I plan to get the MFT and the Sigma even though i will get the 12mm magic slr. I dont know of any manual lenses that are wider than 12mm. That extra wide is useful in establishing shots. I think the stunning shots of the Tower from Philip Blooms doc in SA shows the beauty of having a wide like this in your kit. Its not expensive either.

samyang/rokinon/walimex has announced a 10mm prime at photokina.


Samyang 10mm 1:2.8 ED AS UMC CS is a prototype of the ultra wide-angle prime lens designed for use with cameras fitted with APS-C/DX sensors. Its extremely short focus length and rectilinear imaging system ensure extra wide angle of view amounting to 110 degrees (~107 degree for Canon version). As a result the lens is a comprehensive tool for architecture and landscape shooting. New Samyang 10mm 1:2.8 ED AS UMC CS is similar to the 35mm system lens with 15mm or 16mm focal length in the case of Canon APS-C cameras.

All details concerning the optical construction of the lens and available mounts will be published at a later date. The lens will be introduced for sale either at the end of 2012 or in the first days of 2013.

Liam
11-26-2012, 07:04 PM
samyang/rokinon/walimex has announced a 10mm prime at photokina.

Cine? Non-Cine? Both? Do you have a link at all??

Cengiz Özgök
11-26-2012, 07:09 PM
Anyone else notice the black spots in the car headlights around 1.32?

Is this the camera sensor or the grade??

1673

Yes I notice that and nobody is given attention about it , I also see it on 1.34 sec this is a serious problem this cult be the sensor error

Macielle
11-26-2012, 07:16 PM
Cine? Non-Cine? Both? Do you have a link at all??

not much info still but I hope they release a cine version also.

+INFO: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/14/samyang-10mm-f2-8-
http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/4580/10mm-f2.8-ed-samyang-lens/p1

Liam
11-26-2012, 07:28 PM
not much info still but I hope they release a cine version also.

+INFO: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/14/samyang-10mm-f2-8-
http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/4580/10mm-f2.8-ed-samyang-lens/p1

Nice, I really hope they do, if they know what's good for them, they'll make a Cine version as well!
I noticed Samyang/Rokinon also have a new 7.5mm Fisheye (as a sport shooter this interests me) specifically made with a MFT mount.
It would be awesome if they made a set of MFT lenses, I've owned both Cine/Non-Cine and I had Canon mounts, MFT would be great to eliminate adapters for those with the MFT camera.

bowman
11-27-2012, 12:49 AM
A 8mm would be noticably wider than a 10mm still.

Absolute nonsense spoken about the Sigma being unusable indoors, ridiculous..

John Brawley
11-27-2012, 03:06 AM
Yes I notice that and nobody is given attention about it , I also see it on 1.34 sec this is a serious problem this cult be the sensor error

There have been several other threads discussing this issue.

JB.

refocusedmedia
11-27-2012, 09:14 AM
Cine? Non-Cine? Both? Do you have a link at all??

I posted about it 2 months ago, but it fell out of discussion apparently:

http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?1148-Samyang-to-announce-10mm-f-2-8-prime-for-APS-C&highlight=samyang+10mm

fahnon
11-27-2012, 02:51 PM
Anyone know exactly which Swit battery he was using when he showed his?

CoolColJ
12-01-2012, 07:03 AM
Really nice images!