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cmckinlay
11-11-2015, 05:24 AM
ok, I don't know if this is taboo to talk about but I wanted to try and get a current (2015/16) discussion going about rates and what freelancers and indies are commanding out in the field with and without BMD gear. Also, how you charge/ quote your clients. I see so many different methods from hourly to day rate, project price, etc
If your comfortable, please feel free to post your rates, location, gear and/or links to your work. All the rates I found researching on different sites are mostly old (2005) or its the "contact for pricing" at the end.

Gear:
Ursa Mini 4.6k on order! (#8 in pre-order line at Adorama)
BMCC
BMPCC w/ speedbooster
canon 24-70 2.8L
Canon 70-200 2.8L
Canon 50mm 1.8
Sigma 17-55 2.8
Tokina 11-16 2.8
MatteBox w/ Century Optics 4x4 filter kit
A ton of vintage glass and some anamorphic stuff.
GoPro Hero4 Black w/ gimbal
2 Canon 6D's (if needed for shooting)
DJI Ronin w/ arm and vest cinemilled adapter
BM video assist on ronin
cinegears wireless follow focus
Nyrius Aries Pro Wireless Video
Hand held wireless Directors Monitor
2x Aputure Lightstorm LS1's and a bunch of small Neewer LED lights
Edelkrone Sliderplus 2ft slider
2x sennheiser Lavs
DV ProMix3 Field Mixer
H4n
H6n
Audio Technica 897 shotgun w/ boom pole, dead cat
C stands, light stands, etc

Editing Bay:
MacPro 3 Ghz 8 core Xeon
64 GB Ram
10 TB Pegasus2 R6 for editing
Synology DS1513+ Onsite Backup
I edit primarily in Premiere CC and and have some skills in After Effects
I color in Resolve when its a big project and shot in Raw.

Here are some links to my work.
https://youtu.be/e69jTBHjLi0

https://youtu.be/Te9h2vdpZ7M

https://youtu.be/jCI_prTFpiY

https://vimeo.com/113219464

https://youtu.be/pHSxVLMg9vM

https://youtu.be/xMMSBS0qwPk

https://vimeo.com/128043879

I have alway done a "project price" but I am wondering if I should be doing a day rate sort of thing.
Something like this?
Freelance Rate - includes camera, gimbal, lighting, operator.
$375 - half day
$700 - full day

Editing rates
This is where is don't know the going rates. After Effects and Resolve for example.

Anyways, thats my stuff, I hope this can be an informative and ongoing discussion and you don't need to be as elaborate as me with your gear etc. I figured I would just start it off.
I am located in Las Vegas

Thanks!

bscenefilms
11-11-2015, 10:19 AM
My wife charges $1K / day for full light / shoot using her kit. Not sure if that helps but...

cmckinlay
11-11-2015, 03:12 PM
My wife charges $1K / day for full light / shoot using her kit. Not sure if that helps but...

Thanks for the input bscenefilms.

haavard
11-11-2015, 07:35 PM
There is no such thing as half a day..

stevesherrick
11-11-2015, 08:49 PM
no 1/2 days

because I'm in the union, there are minimum day rates. For non-union you have to figure out what you are worth and there are some formulas for that that take into consideration expenses and such. In my opinion, an experienced DP should be making at least $400/day plus gear rental. $600-800/day is normal and highly experienced and in demand DPs can make anywhere from $1-5K per day plus gear.

Gear is negotiable but try to keep your rates at close to normal market value so you don't get pigeon holed into being cheap. sometimes hard to go up from there. If you're taking losses on your gear all the time then owning your own gear may not be ideal.

There has been a race to the bottom mentality across the industry so it's up to those doing the work to respect themselves and what they bring to the table to keep it from totally bottoming out.

Connor_R
11-11-2015, 09:21 PM
It's also important to consider and define what a "day" is for you. 8 hours? 10 hours? Do you charge overtime at 12 hours?

stevesherrick
11-11-2015, 09:34 PM
It's also important to consider and define what a "day" is for you. 8 hours? 10 hours? Do you charge overtime at 12 hours?
A very good point. I always put that in the terms. You never want to end up working a 20 hour day and getting paid for an 8 or 10 hour day. Make it clear what constitutes a normal day and when overtime kicks in (and the rate).

Jaydubya05
11-11-2015, 09:47 PM
With camera glass and support I'd say at most $450/day assuming you're bringing the 4.6k add an extra hundred for the gimbal. That's for indies in LA I'd do 1200/day for medium sized commercial work. Any more then that unfortunately your client is gonna want an epic. That's been my experience in SoCal your mileage may vary depending on your location.

JLdp
11-11-2015, 09:49 PM
the general flat rate for gear such is this is $1000, thats what i find anyone charges production no matter what they got, seems to be a nice round number everyone agrees on. as for your rate, i would start close to that as well for 10, then let them negotiate you down.
i would separate it like that, because after your hired, the client can always say, well, we want to shoot on red, or alexa, or we need a phantom now…then you can have them put in the number for them to rent that pkg through production, but your rate as a dp wont change.

when i get paid union scale for a commercial its 1150 for 8, if its scale for a tv show i think its 900, this is with no gear, keep it separate.
400 is very low union minimum camera assistant rate.

cmckinlay
11-12-2015, 05:44 AM
Thanks for all the input guys. I wish some bigger productions would pick up on BMD cameras so we can get some street cred. I have almost thought about going RED with the RAVEN just to be able to have clients see the "RED" name which of course commands more $$$.

cmckinlay
11-12-2015, 03:06 PM
There is no such thing as half a day..

Care to explain? I see half day rates everywhere. Union gig, I get it ,no half days. But your own freelance work? Even for simple quick job you charge a full day? Not all jobs require 8- 10 hours of shooting time. I would imagine clients to question a full day rate when they are only shooting for 3 hours.

JLdp
11-12-2015, 03:23 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I wish some bigger productions would pick up on BMD cameras so we can get some street cred. I have almost thought about going RED with the RAVEN just to be able to have clients see the "RED" name which of course commands more $$$.

its a good idea, i ordered one and just by saying im getting a red next year i already have people making plans for me to shoot stuff with it, no one cared i had a BM.

EYu
11-12-2015, 03:24 PM
Care to explain? I see half day rates everywhere. Union gig, I get it ,no half days. But your own freelance work? Even for simple quick job you charge a full day? Not all jobs require 8- 10 hours of shooting time. I would imagine clients to question a full day rate when they are only shooting for 3 hours.
I can relate to your point. I did some half day work but ended up going much over since I have no control over some of the production changes that I have to stop and hang around until the camera group can start up again. But that could be taken up with a base 1/2 rate plus per hour rate thereafter. That can become a bit complicated so I will say just figure out on a good day rate like everyone suggest.

JLdp
11-12-2015, 03:24 PM
Care to explain? I see half day rates everywhere. Union gig, I get it ,no half days. But your own freelance work? Even for simple quick job you charge a full day? Not all jobs require 8- 10 hours of shooting time. I would imagine clients to question a full day rate when they are only shooting for 3 hours.

its because once you except a job, you cant take another job, so your day is paid for, your whole day.
but that being said, every job is negotiable, so if its an easy job then you can give them a break on your rate, but no one likes it when you call it a half day rate.

EYu
11-12-2015, 03:31 PM
its a good idea, i ordered one and just by saying im getting a red next year i already have people making plans for me to shoot stuff with it, no one cared i had a BM.
This is now making me think. I have my BM Cinema Cameras but was contemplating on getting the URSA Mini 4 or 4.6 this coming year. But come to think of it, it might be more advantageous to get a RED Raven to have that advantage. The thing about getting the URSA Mini is that I can use my existing lens collection; while I'll need to invest more on lens and accessories for the Raven. I'll hold off on the Mini and just wait and see, maybe advertise with RED equipment and if push come to shove a RED client knocks on the door, I'll rent first.

stip
11-12-2015, 03:33 PM
no 1/2 days.


Consider to seperate the fee for your work as cameraman and gear rental fees.

Make a detailed list of every even small piece of gear (down to $5) and list them, as utilized, on your invoice. Clients will have a better feeling when looking at the overall sum as they have the feeling they are paying for a lot of (specialized) gear. Unfortunately many are rather willing to pay for that newest pro camera then you and your skills.

I raise my fee every year about 2% and let my returning clients know beforehand.
Over here a 'day' means ten hours. Every extra hour is +25%

EDIT
If you work a lot with the same production companies there can always be room to negotiate (e.g. 'half day') but you shouldn't offer a 'half day' right away.

cmckinlay
11-12-2015, 03:48 PM
its a good idea, i ordered one and just by saying im getting a red next year i already have people making plans for me to shoot stuff with it, no one cared i had a BM.

Maybe time to put in a pre-order there too.

JLdp
11-12-2015, 05:18 PM
Maybe time to put in a pre-order there too.

you might as well, its a fully refundable deposit!
so why the hell not?

also this blog ive been using helps me get back to all the links on reduser about the raven

www.ravenuser.net

jambredz
11-12-2015, 08:56 PM
Don't know if this is even relevant because I'm in a totally different country (with different currency)...but my rates would work out to be around

approx. US$750/ day - Rental of rig which consists of:
BMCC + shoulder rig+ gratical+502 monitor
Lens kit + filters
Follow focus and Mattebox +tripod

DP rate is approx $450 / Shoot day

So approx $1200/ shoot day with my rig.

Preproduction days $250

I don't do half days. I may consider reducing my DP rate a little but only the DP rate depending on the situation. Not the rental or preprod days though.

If I had a Ronin it would rent for $150- $200 (market prices)

And sliders are for about $85.00

I have an Ursa mini pre order...not decided on the rental rate as yet.

Honestly it boils down to your market and your skills. You can't charge something your market does not support. So I def couldn't charge this in LA, when i've seen Epic packages WITH a DP for less. Crazy. I know of another Caribbean country where the lower end rates (without gear) are higher than the high end rates in my country (Jamaica). An associate of mine is over there and when she told me the rates I was like damn...i need to get my ass there lol. Obviously in all this you need to be doing good/great work.

jambredz
11-12-2015, 09:13 PM
its because once you except a job, you cant take another job, so your day is paid for, your whole day.
but that being said, every job is negotiable, so if its an easy job then you can give them a break on your rate, but no one likes it when you call it a half day rate.

This. If i get a "half day" job...i cannot accept a full days job. It's called opportunity cost. But as JLdp said...everything is negotiable...especially if you have a working relationship with the client. If its a new client ...prob not. Also alot of people here (Jamaica) abuse said "half day" and you end up working longer hours and they don't want to pay for that. I'm over that crap so I just tell them the day rate and be done with it.

jambredz
11-12-2015, 09:25 PM
its a good idea, i ordered one and just by saying im getting a red next year i already have people making plans for me to shoot stuff with it, no one cared i had a BM.

Unfortunate but true. However for me to spend 10k (bare bones Raven) makes no sense. Don't have the clientele to support RED. The few people (about 5 RED cams are here ) with a RED most time have to underbudget to get that on a set (not the big shoots though...those have $$). I imagine with Raven more people will own REDs out here but the prices ain't gonna change much. The Ursa mini has so many shooting modes I can cater to alot of different clients while reserving 4k raw for myself and my projects. Ain't nobody got time (or budget) for that lol.

JLdp
11-12-2015, 10:11 PM
Unfortunate but true. However for me to spend 10k (bare bones Raven) makes no sense. Don't have the clientele to support RED. The few people (about 5 RED cams are here ) with a RED most time have to underbudget to get that on a set (not the big shoots though...those have $$). I imagine with Raven more people will own REDs out here but the prices ain't gonna change much. The Ursa mini has so many shooting modes I can cater to alot of different clients while reserving 4k raw for myself and my projects. Ain't nobody got time (or budget) for that lol.

i wonder how much you have in your kit right now? i had a 5D pkg and a pocket camera pkg, i thought i was being cheap, but i sold almost every part of them both and i never really realized it but i had 8k worth of resale! plus some things i didnt sell as in some specialty lenses and the long zoom. so it kind of depends what your position is, i was like well id gladly trade all this for a shootable raven kit, but for me, i just had a 5 epic dragon job and no one would of been the wiser if one was a raven, except my AC's. so for me makes sense, i could make back double the money it costs in a year for sure. my BM or 5D was almost always thrown in for free.

cmckinlay
11-12-2015, 10:57 PM
Hahaha I never thought I would say this but you guys here on BMCuser have sold me on the Raven and its added value. Ill hold onto my pre-order and maybe use it until the Raven arrives.

jambredz
11-12-2015, 11:06 PM
i wonder how much you have in your kit right now? i had a 5D pkg and a pocket camera pkg, i thought i was being cheap, but i sold almost every part of them both and i never really realized it but i had 8k worth of resale! plus some things i didnt sell as in some specialty lenses and the long zoom. so it kind of depends what your position is, i was like well id gladly trade all this for a shootable raven kit, but for me, i just had a 5 epic dragon job and no one would of been the wiser if one was a raven, except my AC's. so for me makes sense, i could make back double the money it costs in a year for sure. my BM or 5D was almost always thrown in for free.

Yeh that makes sense for you most def. It really totally dependings on your market.

The kit I have now would translate to a raven and my Ursa mini. Just need to media and a couple others things. RED specific items would get me to 10k though...if i had no kit at all it would be a good deal more. Alot of my clients (almost all) are happy with prores and can't be bothered with raw (or won't pay for the extra post) . I've never shot raw on a paid shoot with my bmcc... Well maybe one shoot. All raw I've shot was for myself.

cmckinlay
11-12-2015, 11:27 PM
Yeh that makes sense for you most def. It really totally dependings on your market.

The kit I have now would translate to a raven and my Ursa mini. Just need to media and a couple others things. RED specific items would get me to 10k though...if i had no kit at all it would be a good deal more. Alot of my clients (almost all) are happy with prores and can't be bothered with raw (or won't pay for the extra post) . I've never shot raw on a paid shoot with my bmcc... Well maybe one shoot. All raw I've shot was for myself.

Hey Darren, thanks for your input. This is proving to be a very informative thread. For me at least :) I hope others can benefit from it. What premium do you charge the client for 4k or RAW? Is there a premium fee for editing above 1080p when you are working on 4k or Raw?

JLdp
11-12-2015, 11:30 PM
Yeh that makes sense for you most def. It really totally dependings on your market.

The kit I have now would translate to a raven and my Ursa mini. Just need to media and a couple others things. RED specific items would get me to 10k though...if i had no kit at all it would be a good deal more. Alot of my clients (almost all) are happy with prores and can't be bothered with raw (or won't pay for the extra post) . I've never shot raw on a paid shoot with my bmcc... Well maybe one shoot. All raw I've shot was for myself.
raven shoots prores too! and raw if the client wants it, or both at the same time :)
you can be the 6th one on the island :)

jambredz
11-13-2015, 12:07 AM
Hey Darren, thanks for your input. This is proving to be a very informative thread. For me at least :) I hope others can benefit from it. What premium do you charge the client for 4k or RAW? Is there a premium fee for editing above 1080p when you are working on 4k or Raw?

Really it would just be more $$ on the post end....so storage costs would increase and I'm sure editing time (rendering and such). So it really depends on how long that would take. I'd charge the regular day rate for editing it just may be more days so ends up being more expensive. I'm not an editor but I do edit when i direct. At least cut and colour grade. Any other special FX stuff I leave that to people who can do that.

jambredz
11-13-2015, 12:12 AM
raven shoots prores too! and raw if the client wants it, or both at the same time :)
you can be the 6th one on the island :)

lol...I actually think its more like 4 REDs when I think about it. But yeh I could be the 5th . It doesn't shoot 4k prores though :p. I honestly think the Ursa mini will be a better camera (time will tell) even though the RED name garners more clout and draws more clients to you. But I've never been about the clout or the money. People see my work and want to hire me so I get what cam I want. I like the BMD colour and DR the most. I'm not a RED hater though....not at all. A friend of mine is considering getting a Raven so best believe i'll be shooting on that and messing with it if he does.

JLdp
11-13-2015, 01:30 AM
lol...I actually think its more like 4 REDs when I think about it. But yeh I could be the 5th . It doesn't shoot 4k prores though :p. I honestly think the Ursa mini will be a better camera (time will tell) even though the RED name garners more clout and draws more clients to you. But I've never been about the clout or the money. People see my work and want to hire me so I get what cam I want. I like the BMD colour and DR the most. I'm not a RED hater though....not at all. A friend of mine is considering getting a Raven so best believe i'll be shooting on that and messing with it if he does.

thats true, but its full sensor scale down, not cropped, but transcoding the red raw to pro res is so much easier these days, you can do it with a regular macbook. anyway, what ever you prefer, just make pretty pictures!

Willian Aleman
11-13-2015, 06:06 AM
For equipment rental rate in New York City what most DITs do is to check the local rental houses rate with the same or similar item as we own. I think this would apply to other production fields and locations.
We also charge for gas and traffic tolls. Producers have no objections to these additional charges.

k0bayashi
11-13-2015, 07:44 AM
I sell my skills (without kit) from £300 + VAT per day (10 hours max, anything over 10 hours is £50 per hour). Thats just me making great pictures, no post- handing over the footy after shoot. If they want edit - £50 per hour. Kit comes extra depending on what, if I own it it's cheap, if not - rental fee + 10%.

No 1/2 day rates. My rates are non-negotiable. I don;t work for free or passion projects. Done that plenty of times years ago. I know my value, if they client doesnt want to pay it - fine by me, there's plenty of others who do it for less. Not me.

stip
11-13-2015, 10:30 AM
Considering RED Raven...

Cameras are not the gear to invest bigger money in anymore imo (unless maybe you think it can get you as a person into the industry in your area).
Camera development progress and pricing decline move too fast and people/production companies get more and more accustomed to adapt to new/other cameras and systems - like BM.
The production company I work most for went from Arri and RED to now explicitly wanting to shoot most projects on the Pocket (!) while the rest of the production stays the same.

JLdp
11-13-2015, 10:46 AM
Considering RED Raven...

Cameras are not the gear to invest bigger money in anymore imo (unless maybe you think it can get you as a person into the industry in your area).
Camera development progress and pricing decline move too fast and people/production companies get more and more accustomed to adapt to new/other cameras and systems - like BM.
The production company I work most for went from Arri and RED to now explicitly wanting to shoot most projects on the Pocket (!) while the rest of the production stays the same.

well its always knowing when to get in and when to get out of a system, at least the nice thing about red is their upgrade paths, you are never shit out of luck when the new camera comes out. i tried to do a whole production on a pocket once, i tried really hard, that was the night i decided to sell. but for me it was selling a whole set up 16mm super speeds, cage, monitors, the works…too much invested in such a low ball situation, which still might be right for some, so im not knocking it, but you know the pocket is dead when the micro comes out, then the micro will be dead when the micro MK2 4K comes out and so on...

stip
11-13-2015, 10:58 AM
but you know the pocket is dead when the micro comes out, then the micro will be dead when the micro MK2 4K comes out and so on...

But they're all very affordable. and even so, the MFT system stays the same, you can adapt EF lenses, use Speedbooster ect., same cheap media...that all stays the same. If you invested in 16mm glass that's a different story of course.

The Pocket indeed isn't a great production camera with all it's quirks and fiddly handling, far from. But it delivers a superb result.

JLdp
11-13-2015, 11:11 AM
thats why it was better as a free b-camera or a directors cam, i couldnt have production count on it as the A camera, i spent more time trying to get it to work then lighting, but it was a nice little freebee to throw in. i had also came to the conclusion that my biggest problems in real world production situations was always the lens adapters. secondly the micro hdmi out…

i wanted to say one thing, about customer service, on reduser the ceo of red constantly engages with his customers, giveing updates, giving votes on what people want, as he just did yesterday and i made a comment about switching from a brain to full pkg and within a half hour my red bomb squad representative literally called me and emailed me…just from a post, not even a real inquiry.

if only BM had that kind of customer care going on, instead of, nope, cant fix that.

also, i feel bad his thread got hijacked, but to reiterate an answer for him, try to keep your gear and your rate separate during negotiations, even though at the end it's a package deal, that way if you have to add or change equipment at the production or client request it can be accounted for and not come out of your pocket or rate.

cmckinlay
11-13-2015, 08:04 PM
thats why it was better as a free b-camera or a directors cam, i couldnt have production count on it as the A camera, i spent more time trying to get it to work then lighting, but it was a nice little freebee to throw in. i had also came to the conclusion that my biggest problems in real world production situations was always the lens adapters. secondly the micro hdmi out…

i wanted to say one thing, about customer service, on reduser the ceo of red constantly engages with his customers, giveing updates, giving votes on what people want, as he just did yesterday and i made a comment about switching from a brain to full pkg and within a half hour my red bomb squad representative literally called me and emailed me…just from a post, not even a real inquiry.

if only BM had that kind of customer care going on, instead of, nope, cant fix that.

also, i feel bad his thread got hijacked, but to reiterate an answer for him, try to keep your gear and your rate separate during negotiations, even though at the end it's a package deal, that way if you have to add or change equipment at the production or client request it can be accounted for and not come out of your pocket or rate.

This is so on point! As much as I love JB and his informative posts, Grant or at least someone from the inside who has concrete information and the clout to make decisions should engage with the ambassadors of their products on forums just like Jarred Land. Whom I just found out at a funeral a few weeks ago is my second cousin! We are both originally from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada...maybe he will give me a Demo Raven lol!
If I was Grant I would be pushing my team to get the 4.6k on the streets WELL before Raven. But I don't see that happening. I imagine getting my 4.6k around NAB 2016 time. A year later like my BMCC :)

But back to the rates topic. I am actually shocked, but now well informed that no one here charges a half day rate.

JLdp
11-13-2015, 08:23 PM
This is so on point! As much as I love JB and his informative posts, Grant or at least someone from the inside who has concrete information and the clout to make decisions should engage with the ambassadors of their products on forums just like Jarred Land. Whom I just found out at a funeral a few weeks ago is my second cousin! We are both originally from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada...maybe he will give me a Demo Raven lol!
If I was Grant I would be pushing my team to get the 4.6k on the streets WELL before Raven. But I don't see that happening. I imagine getting my 4.6k around NAB 2016 time. A year later like my BMCC :)

But back to the rates topic. I am actually shocked, but now well informed that no one here charges a half day rate.

haha, you should reach out to jarred!
my advice, sell it all, except a sigma 18-35 and your canon 70-200mm and preorder the raven pkg…you know in less than two years there will be upgrade path for raven carbon fiber(or something), and with BM your ursa might be a paper weight, or who knows what issues it will have when first shipped. im actually shocked that it wont even be around until april??? when it was shown at nab this year? crazy. the raven was just announced and it will be here in a few months.
then you can say my pkg is $1000, its a red, and if you feel like you want to give it for less then they will think they are getting a hell of a deal on a red. 10-12 rentals and its paid for.

cmckinlay
11-13-2015, 09:14 PM
haha, you should reach out to jarred!

Friends and Family Discount!


10-12 rentals and its paid for.

This has been the biggest deterrent for me from investing in RED. I could cashflow after only a few jobs wth my BMPCC and BMCC, the RED boys needed quite a few more jobs to pay off their $50k+ investment. At the BMCuser/REDuser meetup this year at NAB a few RED owners were talking about selling their kits and moving to BM after seeing the 4.6k.


Back to rates...when editing, for those of you that do it, do you have your client sit with you throughout the entire process? How many revisions do you offer after each stage, assembly, rough cut, final cut, grading etc.
I know these are super n00b questions but not many people seem to want to talk about things like this so its hard to guage what the community does in general.
I appreciate everyones input!

JLdp
11-13-2015, 09:41 PM
Friends and Family Discount!



This has been the biggest deterrent for me from investing in RED. I could cashflow after only a few jobs wth my BMPCC and BMCC, the RED boys needed quite a few more jobs to pay off their $50k+ investment. At the BMCuser/REDuser meetup this year at NAB a few RED owners were talking about selling their kits and moving to BM after seeing the 4.6k.


that was before raven of course, and now youll be able to get it before the ursa 4.6k

imaj
11-13-2015, 11:58 PM
Considering RED Raven...

Cameras are not the gear to invest bigger money in anymore imo (unless maybe you think it can get you as a person into the industry in your area).
Camera development progress and pricing decline move too fast and people/production companies get more and more accustomed to adapt to new/other cameras and systems - like BM.
The production company I work most for went from Arri and RED to now explicitly wanting to shoot most projects on the Pocket (!) while the rest of the production stays the same.

I have to disagree. I work with a 30 year veteran DP. He only buys high end cameras. i.e. Sony F55. He says that is what separates him from the rest. That is the only way he can stay competitive. Just a quick note...I went on a shoot with him. (I was a PA.) He and the producer are good buds. Anyway, I asked the producer if he has shot BM cameras? He laughed in my face. Says, they are junk! Explained that he wants as close to a final image as possible. No color correcting! I said, would you hire me? He laughed! What if a had an FS700? Nope! Anything less than an F55 and you are out! Maybe an FS7 would work. I did not ask him that. Anyway...They work a lot with CBS and NBC sports! Lots of PGA golf and college football stuff.

jambredz
11-14-2015, 03:11 AM
I have to disagree. I work with a 30 year veteran DP. He only buys high end cameras. i.e. Sony F55. He says that is what separates him from the rest. That is the only way he can stay competitive. Just a quick note...I went on a shoot with him. (I was a PA.) He and the producer are good buds. Anyway, I asked the producer if he has shot BM cameras? He laughed in my face. Says, they are junk! Explained that he wants as close to a final image as possible. No color correcting! I said, would you hire me? He laughed! What if a had an FS700? Nope! Anything less than an F55 and you are out! Maybe an FS7 would work. I did not ask him that. Anyway...They work a lot with CBS and NBC sports! Lots of PGA golf and collage football stuff.

I'm sure its the circles (market) a particular person rolls in and the type of stuff you shoot. I don't live in the states....but know (via online chatting only) quite a few high end DP's who do not own a camera and are soley hired for their skill and not what camera they have. They may have a gh4 or a7s ... some little cam as a personal play thing but not for paid work. Their productions hire the gear thats needed. If a camera is the only thing separating you from another person that's a sad existence (but I know it's real). It means the producer couldn't care less about your skill.

Willian Aleman
11-14-2015, 04:39 AM
I'm sure its the circles (market) a particular person rolls in and the type of stuff you shoot. I don't live in the states....but know (via online chatting only) quite a few high end DP's who do not own camera and are soley hired for their skill and not what camera they have. They may have a gh4 or a7s ... some little cam as a personal play thing but not for paid work. Their productions hire the gear thats needed. If a camera is the only thing separating you from another person that's a sad existence (but I now it's real). It means the producer couldn't care less about your skill.

I live in NYC and I own a BMCC/MFT. Most of my work these days are as DIT. I can testify that the above quote is what I have seen in short film productions I have been working on with scripts between 10 to 15 pages. The production rents the equipment for the DP.
In these productions, about five in the last 9 months I haven't seen a Blackmagic camera. The cameras used are the Alexa XT, Red Epic or Dragon. All these productions have been short films in the range of $50 to US$70,000 budgets with an average shooting duration of 4 to 6 days.

JLdp
11-14-2015, 10:55 AM
I have to disagree. I work with a 30 year veteran DP. He only buys high end cameras. i.e. Sony F55. He says that is what separates him from the rest. That is the only way he can stay competitive. Just a quick note...I went on a shoot with him. (I was a PA.) He and the producer are good buds. Anyway, I asked the producer if he has shot BM cameras? He laughed in my face. Says, they are junk! Explained that he wants as close to a final image as possible. No color correcting! I said, would you hire me? He laughed! What if a had an FS700? Nope! Anything less than an F55 and you are out! Maybe an FS7 would work. I did not ask him that. Anyway...They work a lot with CBS and NBC sports! Lots of PGA golf and collage football stuff.

yeah and well i just did a 5 epic dragon camera shoot, and the behind the scenes crew were on a sony f55 and a sony fs7…so yeah, sony is good for some stuff. sounds like this veteran DP is a veteran in the reality/news type world or something.

stip
11-15-2015, 07:52 AM
Back to rates...when editing, for those of you that do it, do you have your client sit with you throughout the entire process? How many revisions do you offer after each stage, assembly, rough cut, final cut, grading etc.

I usually include 2 revisions for an edit, list of changes should be written. I don't let clients be there durinig editing.


I work with a 30 year veteran DP. He only buys high end cameras. i.e. Sony F55. He says that is what separates him from the rest. That is the only way he can stay competitive. (...) Says, they are junk! Explained that he wants as close to a final image as possible. No color correcting!

Doesn't sound like he has a lot of confidence in his skills. Also sounds like he's a ENG cameraman rather than a DoP.

JLdp
11-15-2015, 11:08 AM
I usually include 2 revisions for an edit, list of changes should be written. I don't let clients be there durinig editing.



Doesn't sound like he has a lot of confidence in his skills. Also sounds like he's a ENG cameraman rather than a DoP.

yeah, "what separates him from the rest" sounds like that he doesnt light, just catching action…

you guys know that it seems like the raven is about half the size of a ursa mini.

mjamerson
11-15-2015, 11:45 AM
This has been very educational throughout the entire thread. Thanks to all for the contributions to the thread

cmckinlay
11-15-2015, 10:45 PM
This has been very educational throughout the entire thread. Thanks to all for the contributions to the thread

+1

imaj
11-16-2015, 02:23 AM
He lights and shoots. He does commercial work as well as what I mentioned earlier. I do not know how reality got into the convo. Its funny, when I was riding back with the two of them...they were talking about several shoots they did...President Bush, David Feherty, Jack Nicolas, Don Henley to name a few.

JLdp
11-16-2015, 09:59 AM
He lights and shoots. He does commercial work as well as what I mentioned earlier. I do not know how reality got into the convo. Its funny, when I was riding back with the two of them...they were talking about several shoots they did...President Bush, David Feherty, Jack Nicolas, Don Henley to name a few.

sorry, still sounds like reality(which is anything real, people being themselves,not just garbage shows) or interview type work, i dont know of any of those guys in a commercial or a film…so that's all we were saying, yes those type of shoots are mainly done with sonys, as are behind the scenes work. commercials, films, and most tv shows are shot with alexas, reds and phantoms. im sure he works though, there a lot of niches in the industry.

analog_addict
11-27-2015, 03:25 PM
snip

Taikonaut
12-04-2015, 02:25 PM
A local production company charges £4k for 2 hrs filming a university conference. I expect editing involved.

kgimedia
12-04-2015, 10:17 PM
There is no such thing as half a day..

This a million times over.

cmckinlay
12-05-2015, 05:19 PM
This a million times over.

hahaha yep! I took it off my rate sheet!

IronFilm
01-12-2016, 05:48 PM
raven shoots prores too! and raw if the client wants it, or both at the same time :)
you can be the 6th one on the island :)


Can not do 4K ProRes however! URSA Mini is still better for that kind of work.


I live in NYC and I own a BMCC/MFT. Most of my work these days are as DIT. I can testify that the above quote is what I have seen in short film productions I have been working on with scripts between 10 to 15 pages. The production rents the equipment for the DP.
In these productions, about five in the last 9 months I haven't seen a Blackmagic camera. The cameras used are the Alexa XT, Red Epic or Dragon. All these productions have been short films in the range of $50 to US$70,000 budgets with an average shooting duration of 4 to 6 days.

It boggles my mind that there are so many short films with such "large" budgets, when there is no way short films can recoup that kind of money. (not like there is with features)

Where do they get the money from??

IronFilm
01-12-2016, 06:00 PM
well its always knowing when to get in and when to get out of a system, at least the nice thing about red is their upgrade paths, you are never shit out of luck when the new camera comes out. i tried to do a whole production on a pocket once, i tried really hard, that was the night i decided to sell. but for me it was selling a whole set up 16mm super speeds, cage, monitors, the works…too much invested in such a low ball situation, which still might be right for some, so im not knocking it, but you know the pocket is dead when the micro comes out, then the micro will be dead when the micro MK2 4K comes out and so on...

The Red "upgrade" path is a whole lot of B*llsh*t really, the cost for it is so high you could just go out and buy a complete Sony FS7 or even F5 with ease! Then you'd be left with TWO cameras! ;) And not just one "upgraded" one. And you'd have two different cameras able to cover two different kinds of jobs, without needing to rent in anything.


I have to disagree. I work with a 30 year veteran DP. He only buys high end cameras. i.e. Sony F55. He says that is what separates him from the rest. That is the only way he can stay competitive. Just a quick note...I went on a shoot with him. (I was a PA.) He and the producer are good buds. Anyway, I asked the producer if he has shot BM cameras? He laughed in my face. Says, they are junk! Explained that he wants as close to a final image as possible. No color correcting! I said, would you hire me? He laughed! What if a had an FS700? Nope! Anything less than an F55 and you are out! Maybe an FS7 would work. I did not ask him that. Anyway...They work a lot with CBS and NBC sports! Lots of PGA golf and college football stuff.


It is very old school thinking, they haven't opened their mind to cheaper alternatives. But it works for them! Keeps them at a higher tier earning more, as that is how they project and market themselves.


then you can say my pkg is $1000, its a red, and if you feel like you want to give it for less then they will think they are getting a hell of a deal on a red. 10-12 rentals and its paid for.

It is not "paid for" after just a dozen jobs, out of that you still need to eat and cover your rent and other costs.

Instead you need to see how much extra you're getting for your RED over the alternative (FS7/F5/URSA/C300/whatever) and its cost. It might only be a few hundred extra relatively speaking, then it will end up taking you dozens of jobs to pay it off.

yoclay
01-14-2016, 03:38 AM
Unfortunately in France today, for the most part your day rate is as based on the camera you own. So if you own a RED you are competing at a different level than a BM owner. Most clients are quite aware of the camera being used on a set and if they are going to confer a serious money job to an owner operator they want someone working to that level. In the mid range budget, the RED operator is going to take the job over Sony, BM, etc. too. So this is probably the number 1 reason why people buy that camera today. From a marketing standpoint, this is absolutely RED's strategy as well. Coolness, buzz and a perception of quality are in constant play. The cost actually ADDS to the allure of the camera.

Frankly, I hate their macho marketing and I couldn't care less, but I am not my clients and what they want is what they get.
However, if they want quality I always insist on the Alexa. Why? Because I think it produces nicer skin tones, AND most importantly it is not an owner operator camera. Everyone expects to rent that camera. So I don't need to invest in an expensive RED system to compete. Anyone asks in terms of my previous footage? Shot on an Alexa. Is it true?

Hell no.

Just saved myself $50K.

Gross
01-15-2016, 01:08 PM
It really matters who your clients are. If you don't have many clients yet, it matters who you want your clients to be. It's all true about clients being aware of what camera you have, and making hiring decisions based on that. Those clients DO exist, but they are not the only clients out there that are hiring for video. Are they YOUR clients?

What BM has done with their highly capable and highly affordable cameras is open up a whole new market for video production. I am doing a lot of my work with small businesses who have never hired for a video production before. I can charge a fair price (about $800/day shooting) and use my BMPCC (with sub $100 vintage Nikkors) to bring them really good quality without breaking their bank. And I don't break my bank in order to get hired. But those are MY clients. I won't say the old models of video production are dying out, but I will say that they are not the only models anymore. And ad agencies or networks or large corporations are not the only places to find adequate budgets for video production anymore. You just need to decide who YOUR clients will be, and structure a fairly-priced service that will bring value to them.