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PappasArts
04-29-2012, 05:21 PM
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/PappasArts/blackmagicCamerainvite_MichaelPappas_PappasArts.jp g


Meet the BlackMagic Design Team in Los Angeles May 16th & New York May 24th.
Blackmagic Design will host the Blackmagic Roadshow in Los Angeles on May 16th & New York May 24th. The event will include Blackmagic Design’s complete range of products for broadcast, post production and live events, as well as presentations by Blackmagic Design partners and renowned editors and color artists, as well as a keynote presentation by DigitalFilm Tree’s CEO, Ramy Katrib.

See the complete range of Blackmagic Design solutions for broadcast, post production and live events! This is a fantastic opportunity to see our newly announced NAB 2012 products for the first time after the event in a series of demonstrations and theater presentations. Join us and key industry partners to learn more about Blackmagic Design products and complementary workflows and solutions.

During the day the Blackmagic Design team will answer your questions, give technical advice and provide 'hands on' product demonstrations. This is also a great chance to network with other industry professionals and manufacturers, with refreshments provided throughout the day.

The event, which is free to attend, will include hands on demonstrations and theater presentations of Blackmagic Design’s products, as well as the first demonstrations in California & New York of the new products announced at NAB 2012, including the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, DaVinci Resolve 9.0, Teranex 2D and 3D Processors, HyperDeck Studio Pro, UltraStudio Express, Universal Videohub Editing Interface and Battery Converters.

As part of the event, Ramy Katrib of DigitalFilm Tree will discuss new workflows and tools used at his LA based post production house. In addition, he will discuss the DaVinci Resolve workflow used by DigitalFilm Tree on the nationally acclaimed television show NCIS: Los Angeles, as well as new studio projects being completed with Teranex standards converter processors.

Theater presentations and hands on demonstrations will also be offered by Blackmagic Design partners Avid, Adobe, PNY Technology, Magma and Promise Technology.

A full schedule of the day will be sent out in advance. Whether you can join us for part of the event or the whole day we look forward to seeing you.


Event Details For Los Angeles:

* Where: Burbank Airport Marriott Hotel, Academy Ballroom 2 & 3, 2500 Hollywood Way, Burbank CA.
* When: May 16th, 11:00 am – 7:00 pm
* To attend the event, please visit http://invite.blackmagic-design.com/event2012/

Event Details For New York:

* Where: New Yorker Hotel, Ramada Plaza, Grand Ballroom, 481 Eighth Avenue, New York, NY.
* When: May 24th, 11:00 am – 7:00 pm
* To attend the event, please visit http://invite.blackmagic-design.com/event2012/




For Updates: MIKOS • MLPappas on Twitter
http://PAPPASARTS.WORDPRESS.COM
http://TWITTER.COM/PAPPASARTS
http://MIKOSarts.wordpress.com
http://MIKOSarts.COM

BlackMagic Digital Camera Info: http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?28-BlackMagic-Cinema-Camera-Technology-Announcements-amp-Latest-Info

jmmusic
04-30-2012, 01:51 PM
Thanks for posting this, Pappas. Anybody else in LA going to attend the Burbank event?

PappasArts
05-01-2012, 02:57 AM
Your welcome- I might be going, depends on the schedule of course. I would like to see the system in person and meet with the BlackMagic team too. I imagine there will be much more footage to see. I would suggest that Blackmagic, if possible set up a small theater with a moderate size screen 15 to 20ft etc, and show projected BMC material. People would like to see that..

Looking foreword to getting my hands on the BMC.


For Updates: MIKOS • MLPappas on Twitter
http://PAPPASARTS.WORDPRESS.COM
http://TWITTER.COM/PAPPASARTS
http://MIKOSarts.wordpress.com
http://MIKOSarts.COM

BlackMagic Digital Camera Info: http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?28-BlackMagic-Cinema-Camera-Technology-Announcements-amp-Latest-Info


.

adam777
05-01-2012, 05:07 AM
What about Sydney? .... It's so close to Melbourne ...

Phil
05-01-2012, 07:04 AM
agghh we are filming in California on the 16th but up in San Francisco & will be in Newyork airport on the 24th for 2hrs...close but yet so far! Hmm but if its raining, it looks like a quick 5hr drive!

Grug
05-01-2012, 07:49 AM
What about Sydney? .... It's so close to Melbourne ...

What about Melbourne? It's even closer to Melbourne!

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-09-2012, 07:43 PM
I'm attending the Los Angeles event (in the afternoon). Hope to run into some of you there.

randyman
05-09-2012, 08:26 PM
I'm heading into NYC for the day... always nice to visit, hope to see some of you there.

Andrew
05-09-2012, 09:04 PM
For anyone who will be attending, please shoot some video of the event and share it here. :)

Ulisse
05-10-2012, 06:00 PM
Yes PLS very interesting!

Willian Aleman
05-14-2012, 11:10 AM
For those interesting in Avid and BD's workflow in general, as an AVID's user I just received this e-mail from Avid:

"Come See Avid at the Blackmagic Design Roadshow

You’ve probably heard that you can use the latest Avid® Media Composer®, Symphony™, and NewsCutter® software with Blackmagic Design I/O hardware—but it’s much more than just that. Join Avid at the Blackmagic Design Roadshow and discover powerful new workflows and solutions set forth by the partnership between these two companies:

See how Avid and Blackmagic products work together to optimize your digital production workflow
Learn ways to avoid transcoding delays and bottlenecks while retaining the highest quality
Get a walk through of the color grading roundtrip workflow between Avid and DaVinci Resolve
And more"

Let's see if the " more" is going to be about the BMC workflow.

By the way, I'm in New York City.

mbeck
05-14-2012, 02:31 PM
So, we need a definite list of questions that we need to get BM to answer (or alt least be asked.. weather they answer or not is up to them).

We need like a Top 10 or something... and someone to ask them, I wish I could interview them for my site, but being in the middle of the country make getting to this event cost prohibitive! Anyone up for doing an on camera interview? Is Landmine already going to do this?

Willian Aleman
05-14-2012, 03:01 PM
So, we need a definite list of questions that we need to get BM to answer (or alt least be asked.. weather they answer or not is up to them).

Anyone up for doing an on camera interview?

I can offer to do the camera and audio work for the interview. Is there a volunteer here? It would be nice, after permission, to publish the results on this forum.

bumkicho
05-16-2012, 03:30 PM
Any news?

pcenginefx
05-16-2012, 03:38 PM
Where are our real-time updates and videos?? ;) Hoping to see a ton of news by the time I get home tonight.......

mhood
05-16-2012, 04:22 PM
Did everyone have to sign an NDA at the door? ;-)

Cheezweezl
05-16-2012, 05:25 PM
OK. No NDA at the door. They had only one camera with them so of course it was a sh*t storm of people. Here's what I got.

Launch is still set for July.

SSD's can be pretty much any kind, but the rep said to stick to ones with good benchmark results. He also said to steer clear of 128GB models as they use more compression. Also, 1TB models are not so good at the moment. As far as brand names, the only one I heard him mention as good was Crucial Tech. I think we kinda knew this.

The sensor is capable of more than 30fps. The 30fps limit is based on raw recording to SSD. He said higher framerates in prores, dnxhd, or over thunderbolt may be possible but we will not see it at launchtime.

As of now, you can control f-stop by using the ff and rew buttons on the back. Currently there is no display of what stop you're actually at but he said we *should* see that happen by launch.

He also mentioned the possibility of auto focus but it wasn't working on that camera and he didn't clarify any other details.

As of now, there are still only 3 ISO settings. 400, 800, and 1600. Also only 3 WB settings. 3200, 5600, and 6500. He said they are working on having these settings be variable using an onscreen slider control. He also mentioned that they were looking into making these adjustments semi-transparent so you could see your image while adjusting.

They had the image up on a monitor. 68
Nice to see framelines and all the usual info you would expect from a RED. I imagine f-stop will be there as soon as they figure that one out.

Other than that, the general vibe was -yes we hear your concerns and desires and are working on it. right now we are concentrating on making current features work so we can release the camera. at that point we will start tackling additional features by order of importance.- he said he didn't want to promise anything but based on the frequency of updates of their other products, he would believe that firmware updates will be often and impressive.

i've been using resolve since it first launched for the mac. i almost feel bombarded with updates at times. i have a good feeling about this camera.

and last but not least, to see the image in person is pretty mind blowing when you think about the cost of the camera. it felt like i was looking at a RED.

-can't wait...

Cheezweezl
05-16-2012, 05:31 PM
I thought the "prores 2.6k" was interesting. i meant to ask about it but got caught up in other stuff....

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-16-2012, 06:29 PM
I second the above info. According to Dan May, who was presenting the camera, the number one request is 60fps. They are pretty firmly committed to releasing the camera with the advertised specs on time.

An interesting thing I picked up is that the camera can be powered through the Thunderbolt.

EDIT: NOPE. I misunderstood that. Camera is NOT powerable thru Thunder bolt.

Cheezweezl
05-16-2012, 06:32 PM
An interesting thing I picked up is that the camera can be powered through the Thunderbolt.

I know he said at NAB that the sensor could be powered via Tbolt when recording to a mac. Has that been revised to the entire camera can be powered via Tbolt?

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-16-2012, 06:45 PM
See my edit. I was wrong. :(

Kholi
05-16-2012, 07:28 PM
Good summary, Cheez--

I'll add to that, I asked about the dynamic range and the likelyhood of hitting 13 stops. He didn't exactly say hell yes, but he definitely didn't say no way. It's one of the major things that they were going after when they started the project, and they are doing what they can to live up to that claim.

Rolling shutter - Absolutely NO WORSE than any DSLR out right now aside from the D800 (which I haven't even messed with). Totally overblown by some bloggers, I think Adam Wilt hit it right.

Got to check out the mount for myself, pretty confident that a well done hackjob will get any mount on it, totally looking to Hot Rod in the near future.

Glad I've got an early pre-order in, doesn't look like you'll be able to get one for a while if you don't.

Oh, AND, they are not backing down on the July ship date. So people can put that to rest. They are well aware of the fact people want footage but they aren't releasing any until they are confident in the image. And, they're assuming that it'll be like "here's footage" on June 17th, then "here's the camera" thirty days later. HE DID NOT SAY THEY WERE SHIPPING JULY 17th, that was just the example he gave.

Although that'd be a tasty B-day present for me. =D

popcornflix
05-16-2012, 07:30 PM
About every other person who came up to the camera shook the panning handle from side to side to see the rolling shutter. It definitely has a jello effect, but not too bad. IMHO, it could be corrected in post. To my eye, it was more than the Af100, but less than a 5D.

Also, someone asked Dan May about a Micro 4/3 lens mount, and he said that the camera was hardware locked, and if they do an M4/3 it would be an entirely separate camera. Not an upgrade, not a retrofit. but a different model of camera. Disappointing.

popcornflix
05-16-2012, 07:31 PM
Something you can't really see on internet video is how good the image looks on the monitor. The room had harsh bright light, but the image had a very film-like response.

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-16-2012, 07:44 PM
They also indicated that there will be additional footage from the camera released, just not right away. Oh, and 3rd parties are on the battery issue like crazy.

Edit- sorry Kholi. Didn't see your post on the footage. This mobile version takes some getting used to. :)

Kholi
05-16-2012, 07:53 PM
Haha no big deal. The more info the merrier! It'll get repeated a few times anyway. xDDD

Dan Pears
05-16-2012, 08:04 PM
Thanks for the info guys, great news! Sounds like everything is on track, and stoked my preorder is in.

mhood
05-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Yes! TYVM! I'm so glad that I pre-ordered.

pcenginefx
05-16-2012, 08:32 PM
Yes, thank you very much for the report! I'm also feeling pretty great about my pre-order - love how the display looks - nice and clean.

Kholi
05-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Oh, yeah, about the design: I was joking before about the camera needing a "clock" display, but now I really want it to have one. It's pretty sleek and foreign to me, but very attractive in a "geeky" futuristic sort of way. I have no idea how it'll handle in real life, if it'll be a popular design, but it definitely looks cool.

Right at home on my table, doubling as a wake-up cal. :B

bumkicho
05-16-2012, 08:39 PM
Great news on them focusing on getting the camera work for July shipping. Also great to hear about a third party battery solution.

Tim Joy
05-16-2012, 08:51 PM
Very good news, especially about shipping dates. Thanks for the info. Also interested about the Prores 2.6k?
Kinda want to head down to NY to see it myself.

Kholi
05-16-2012, 08:52 PM
Not sure what the 2.6K is about, but maybe it has to round up to the nearest pixel or something? Not very sure it would matter if it were 2.5 or 2.6.

bumkicho
05-16-2012, 08:54 PM
That would be awesome if Prores 2.6K means that we can shoot in prores at its full (2.6K) resolution.

Andrew
05-16-2012, 08:56 PM
Did I miss something? Are we going to get higher than 1080p Prores?

Also, any mention of variable frame rates? 1-30 fps?

Thanks for all the reports guys!

Kholi
05-16-2012, 09:00 PM
No, no higher than 1080 prores. the 2.6K = Raw camera. The ProRes camera was not there.

No mention of variable frame rates.

mhood
05-16-2012, 09:05 PM
Cropping, zooming and panning in post to a 1080 output? That would sure be sweet.

edit: Sorry...not gonna happen in ProRes apparently.

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Re: the batteries- they mentioned Anton Bauer was very eager to test a product w/ the BMCC.

Cheezweezl
05-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Kholi, did u see my pic of the monitor? It said "prores 2.6k". Whaddup wit dat?

Kholi
05-16-2012, 10:05 PM
Kholi, did u see my pic of the monitor? It said "prores 2.6k". Whaddup wit dat?

I sawr it on the monitor there as well. I think it may just be rounding up or the prototype's reading something weird.

Tim Joy
05-16-2012, 10:35 PM
My big question is how is the built-in screen for focusing?

Kholi
05-16-2012, 10:40 PM
If you've used a DSLR it's miles ahead of any of those. But I think that was going to be a given. xDDDD

Gwangjuboy
05-17-2012, 12:33 AM
Its an obvious one but I love to know what the direct response to the question of different mounts would be considering the big demand, ie IF and WHEN.


Going along with that it would be great to know if anyone tried various lenses on the camera, particularly the Tokina 11-16mm.

rizibo
05-17-2012, 01:02 AM
The camera had a Canon zoom lens which I think was the 25-105mm f4 and I put the iso at 1600 an the monitor's image looked dark. This may be due to the lens and the fairly dark lighting because the camera was near the projection screen area which was dark. I think you need to use a fast lens with this camera. Post #17 shows the image at iso 1600 which doesn't seem that bad though.

I panned the camera quickly at 25mm and I didn't see much rolling shutter artifact. When I put the lens at 105mm and panned quickly then I saw a very severe rolling shutter artifact like the iphone with the vertical lines going from the 90 degree angle to 75 degrees. The rolling shutter artifact with a tele lens was already discussed by John Brawley and so this is no surprise and probable no different from any other camera with a rolling shutter. If you must pan quickly you have to use a wide angle lens and not a tele.

The log image on the monitor was flat and the skin tones were different than what I saw with my naked nubie eye but the final image after color correction may be better.

laco
05-17-2012, 01:42 AM
The camera had a Canon zoom lens which I think was the 25-105mm f4 and I put the iso at 1600 an the monitor's image looked dark. I think you need to use a fast lens with this camera.
ISO, and f-stop is universal, so if its dark on the BMC, it will be dark on another cam too:) Maybe the shutter was mis-adjusted.


I panned the camera quickly at 25mm and I didn't see much rolling shutter artifact. When I put the lens at 105mm and panned quickly then I saw a very severe rolling shutter artifact
Great to see someone tested!
If you tested on 25mm that is around 60mm on a fullframe. So if you didn't see any rolling shutter shooting a "normal lens", I'm good!
Thanks

laco
05-17-2012, 03:28 AM
Re: the batteries- they mentioned Anton Bauer was very eager to test a product w/ the BMCC.
IT would be great from a company to announce something before everyone starts buying current batteries for the BMC

laco
05-17-2012, 06:06 AM
one funny thing came into my mind: look at the Feature request thread, it's filled with requests for lens mounts, Cineform RAW implementing, waveform option, and so on... When the actual camera still doesn't display the current f-stop:)

So we need to cool down our heads, and focus on not asking for everything when the camera isn't even finished. Also with the current features it will still be a mind blowing camera.

pharpsied
05-17-2012, 07:22 AM
+1

mhood
05-17-2012, 07:43 AM
So we need to cool down our heads, and focus on not asking for everything when the camera isn't even finished. Also with the current features it will still be a mind blowing camera.

No harm done in asking for the moon. BMD has said that they are listening and that they prioritize the feature requests for future development and that they are concentrating on getting the camera out as described in the announcement. It doesn't seem like BMD views the many requests as a distraction, why should you?

I agree totally that the camera is a mind blowing thing...my brain is melting and I've yet to even see a BMC in person.

laco
05-17-2012, 08:14 AM
No harm done in asking for the moon. BMD has said that they are listening and that they prioritize the feature requests for future development and that they are concentrating on getting the camera out as described in the announcement. It doesn't seem like BMD views the many requests as a distraction, why should you?

I agree totally that the camera is a mind blowing thing...my brain is melting and I've yet to even see a BMC in person.
It depends.. if BMD would "really listen" to these requests, they would cancel the camera release and ship a $8000 camera in 2013.
I'm happy with the current camera if it works as it should, and ships in July.

Brian@202020
05-17-2012, 08:41 AM
It depends.. if BMD would "really listen" to these requests, they would cancel the camera release and ship a $8000 camera in 2013.
I'm happy with the current camera if it works as it should, and ships in July.

+1

mhood
05-17-2012, 08:50 AM
It depends.. if BMD would "really listen" to these requests, they would cancel the camera release and ship a $8000 camera in 2013.
I'm happy with the current camera if it works as it should, and ships in July.

Be patient. The 4K BMC with M4/3 mount should be available in early 2013 for less than $5K. ;-)

laco
05-17-2012, 09:32 AM
Be patient. The 4K BMC with M4/3 mount should be available in early 2013 for less than $5K. ;-)
:D
Honestly.. I was in ecstasy when I heard about the original 3K Scarlet. We shoot a lot on the 5D and grading/VFX the h264 files are just pure pain. When you zoom in 400% to draw a mask and you only see big blocks jumping around, that's when I started looking for a window to jump out:) So I wanted a small sensor camera, with a gradable image. For the NAB 2011 I even wanted to go to the States just to pre-order the Scarlet if it's announced on the event. It wasn't announced, and not just delayed, but transformed into a mini-Epic.

And now here I am, on the pre-order list for the BMC:) So I'm not interested in 4K, M4/3, I just want what the BMC _IS_, and not what it could be.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 09:49 AM
played with the camera, and the rep Don May was the picture of patience - nice guy that represented the company well.

But Jello was not small, bit like a 5d Mk II, and reps repeatedly said this is not a low light camera. Screen was awful, no use for anything but framing and then it looked washed out even indoors. Prhaps they will apply a LUT to to bring it up but the screen will never be good, or even acceptable for critical decisions. When people played with the focus they Looked at the large table top monitor that had a very very nice image.

Rep said that 500GB SSD gave only 45 minutes RAW. Only three WB points, and only three ISOs although they hope for future upgrades.

But most interesting was that they had nice displays and signs for every product BUT the camera. This camera is an after thought and it is time to realize that BM is a great great post production company but not an imagining company - yet. That means that they are making some strange decisions, like leaving 60p out becuase it would work only on compressed codecs and they did not think that people would be shooting much compressed. Most people simply cannot afford the storage requirements to shoot RAW only.

Furthermore they only received permission to use ProRes immediately before NAB, and final approval is a major delay. Very little effort was spent on Compressed codecs and it is not really in their frame of reference. They act like this is this only a RAW cam, but most people will shot compressed much of the time, especially with the storage requirements and post production workflow being more than most people want for everyday shooting.

There will be no image stabilization at shipping, perhaps they will send power to the appropiate canon lenses at a later date. no decision has been made and it has not even been looked at. hey really are shipping a beta prototype, with some mind blowing features and some glaring omissions.

Why, because this was designed as a cine camera, not the multipurpose tool everyone is treating it as. I am sure that it will be a great cine camera, we have them on order, but very little effort has gone into making it more than a specialized tool that requires accessories at capture and a hefty post production suite.

Make sure you understand what this camera is, not what you wish it were. Its total ecosystem is not cheap and it is really bad for some common purposes. but for a narrative film shot under lights it will shine.

laco
05-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Screen was awful, no use for anything but framing and then it looked washed out even indoors.
Wasn't it set to LOG monitoring?!

imdjay
05-17-2012, 11:49 AM
i'll be hitting up the NY event to ask some questions of my own, the main one at the moment being: the camera is reported to be native asa800 rated, but NOT a low light camera, and that just seems contradictory. the pixel size is about the same if not bigger than many of the DSLRs, so im very curious why they're touting that is isn't a low light camera.

most times i don't need insane low light, but certain events i shoot just need it, because an on camera light will attract who im shooting and ruin the shot. the last one i did i used a z96 to start and then ditched it and ended up with a few shots at 6400 on the 5d2. the only way i justify using them is by dropping as much of the noise into contrast. that, and the shots are very quick, and focusing being the next major hurtle when dipping to under f2, so im hoping that the BMC fits the bill to replace my 5d2 for these types of events, but it may very well not.


https://vimeo.com/40730321

Barry Green
05-17-2012, 12:56 PM
like leaving 60p out becuase it would work only on compressed codecs and they did not think that people would be shooting much compressed. Most people simply cannot afford the storage requirements to shoot RAW only.
But BM has been quite clear -- they view this as a RAW camera, first and foremost and primarily. The compressed codecs were an after-the-fact add-on, not part of the original design.


Very little effort was spent on Compressed codecs and it is not really in their frame of reference. They act like this is this only a RAW cam, but most people will shot compressed much of the time, especially with the storage requirements and post production workflow being more than most people want for everyday shooting.
And this is why I think there's going to be a lot of people struggling with the BMC, and one reason why we wanted to get BMCUser established early -- there's going to be a major learning curve and a necessary attitude shift among the users. This is NOT a compressed-codec, do-everything product. This is a raw digital cine camera -- period. That's what it was designed at, that is what it will excel at, and any other use of it will be outside its design parameters. I'm sure people will insist on using it for other purposes, and they'll kludge together workarounds (just like they created those frankenrigs to try to turn DSLRs into video cameras) but that's not what it's designed for. You can probably make it do other things, but those will be inherently "out of its wheelhouse" and not what they intended.

Don't expect them to add features to make it a more convenient video camera, that's not what it's for. I really think that folks who are expecting that, would probably be better off with an AF100 instead. The BMC is what it is, and should be used as what it is, for the purposes it was intended for. Any other use is going to require extra work and create frustration on the user.


This camera is an after thought and it is time to realize that BM is a great great post production company but not an imagining company
As much as it may infuriate some people, I think this is an excellent observation. BlackMagic makes post-production tools. The BMC is a way to deliver images to their post-production suite. It makes footage, but it is not intended to be the be-all and end-all of video cameras. I'm okay with that, I believe that's what they had in mind and I understand it and accept it for what it is. But I can totally predict that there will be a backlash against it because I'm pretty sure that there's lots of folks who don't want that, they want a video camera with a raw option. That's not what this is.


Why, because this was designed as a cine camera, not the multipurpose tool everyone is treating it as. I am sure that it will be a great cine camera, we have them on order, but very little effort has gone into making it more than a specialized tool that requires accessories at capture and a hefty post production suite.
This is exactly what it is. This is exactly what it always was. And that's exactly what it will be.


Make sure you nderstanding what this camera is, not what you wish it were
Quoted for truth.

Barry Green
05-17-2012, 01:02 PM
so im very curious why they're touting that is isn't a low light camera.
800 ISO is as fast as any motion picture film stock ever was. I don't think Kodak or Fuji even offer an 800 ISO film anymore.


most times i don't need insane low light, but certain events i shoot just need it, because an on camera light will attract who im shooting and ruin the shot. the last one i did i used a z96 to start and then ditched it and ended up with a few shots at 6400 on the 5d2. the only way i justify using them is by dropping as much of the noise into contrast. that, and the shots are very quick, and focusing being the next major hurtle when dipping to under f2, so im hoping that the BMC fits the bill to replace my 5d2 for these types of events, but it may very well not.
Perfect example of the type of shooting where I would think the BMC would be most ill-suited. I'm sure someone will do it, I'm sure someone will even post a video to "prove" that it can be done, but -- I think the BMC would be the worst possible camera on the market for that type of shooting, except possibly a Red One. And the reason I say the Red One is worse is not because of a feature difference, but because the Red is a lot bigger and heavier with all the same cine-oriented drawbacks for this type of shooting.

mik303
05-17-2012, 01:14 PM
Hearing people complain about the BMC's compressed codec options is so strange. Every video camera on the market these days that is cheaper than $10,000 shoots compressed formats. Go buy one of those for concerts, sports, weddings, live events and 12-hour ENG shooting days. The BMC is a camera for making films. Shooting 4-8 pages a day. The mindset is like shooting 35mm film, where a 5< minute roll is $350+ each! You rehearse a lot more, and carefully set up your shots to make them perfect. Unlike reality TV where you just spray everything down at a 35:1 ratio and hand it off to some poor editor.

The next thing you know, people will be running around here asking for servo zoom lenses and built-in ND filters and an SD card option where you can record H264. It's silly.

Kholi
05-17-2012, 01:16 PM
Want everything for nothing, even if the next thing has even less. Pretty funny.

As far as lowlight, I think they're comparing it to Sony cameras. But, I don't even KNOW what other manufacturer has a lowlight beast like the FS100. Aspiring to that level of lowlight craziness is something that I don't want them to do, because taming the FS100 when any light's present is very very frustrating.

randyman
05-17-2012, 01:16 PM
Barry, your posts about what this camera actually is are great. I'm sure you'll get people arguing with you, but that doesn't mean you're not right on the money.

It's a cinema camera. Cinema.

I'm reminded of all the nattering when the iPad first came out. "It's not a laptop. Why would I want it? I can't run FCP on it."

When you're a hammer, all the world's a nail.

Kingswell
05-17-2012, 01:19 PM
The clue is in the name. It's not called the Blackmagic Video Camera.

EDIT: Randyman beat me to it!

Kholi
05-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Have no idea how the clear designation of CINEMA manages to elude people...

mhood
05-17-2012, 01:22 PM
I wonder how it might affect BMD's view of the Universe when they take a six month user's survey and discover that over 80% are shooting ProRes? This is deja vu all over again...you could replace BMC with 7D and it's mostly direct quotes. ;-)

I like to fish. I use a finesse reel on my heavy flippin stick. That's not what the reel was intended for by Daiwa...they even named it "Pixy" but when you beef up the drag a bit and add some ABEC9 spool bearings with 30 pound braid, it pitches in the slop with the best of them. My Pixy is a Pixzilla now.

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-17-2012, 02:10 PM
Here's a point: the combination of camera w/ Ultrascope will allow many users (like myself) who have never used pro-level cameras to experience a lot of what it takes to make great images. It will be like stepping up from a point and shoot to a DSLR for many people.

Interesting that I heard some people who work w/ REDs & Arris talking about this being a "B" camera, but for a lot of us, this is going to be our "A" camera & it'll move DSLRs to "B" status.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Wasn't it set to LOG monitoring?!

Even with log monitoring this is an inferior LCD.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 02:42 PM
Want everything for nothing, even if the next thing has even less. Pretty funny.

As far as lowlight, I think they're comparing it to Sony cameras. But, I don't even KNOW what other manufacturer has a lowlight beast like the FS100. Aspiring to that level of lowlight craziness is something that I don't want them to do, because taming the FS100 when any light's present is very very frustrating.

Canon C300

Frank Glencairn
05-17-2012, 03:48 PM
Canon C300

No way, but that´s an other forum.

Kholi
05-17-2012, 03:51 PM
No way, but that´s an other forum.

Agreed. Although I also add the disclaimer that I am not that versed in the C300.

Robert Rogoz
05-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Barry, your posts about what this camera actually is are great. I'm sure you'll get people arguing with you, but that doesn't mean you're not right on the money.

It's a cinema camera. Cinema.

I'm reminded of all the nattering when the iPad first came out. "It's not a laptop. Why would I want it? I can't run FCP on it."

When you're a hammer, all the world's a nail.

So music videos and sports are not cinema? Watch "Life Cycles" and you'll see why higher frame rates are a must. What about "The Art of Flight". These films were big budget productions (several millions of dollars). I think lack of 60p is a major strategic mistake. It will be a deal barker for a lot of people, who film that kind of work.

Andrew
05-17-2012, 04:48 PM
So music videos and sports are not cinema? Watch "Life Cycles" and you'll see why higher frame rates are a must. What about "The Art of Flight". These films were big budget productions (several millions of dollars). I think lack of 60p is a major strategic mistake. It will be a deal barker for a lot of people, who film that kind of work.

It may be a deal breaker for some, but consider the alternative of BMD releasing a 2.5k uncompressed raw camera capable of shooting at 60 fps for a price of (guessing) $8000. The price tag would also be a deal breaker for many. There's no doubt that high fps is a desirable thing to have in a cinema camera, but that's just not what the BMC is right now. It's a $3000 camera that shoots 2.5k raw. If we want something else we'll need to look elsewhere or wait for BMD to release other cameras.

Andrew
05-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Oh and I really have no idea how much it might actually cost to design a BMC that shoots 60p. Any ideas? I think it might need to sell for more than my guess of $8000 though. Or do you think that's a high estimate?

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 05:33 PM
Another strange statement is that it has a base of 800 ISO but it cannot be pushed past 1600 ISO. Really why not? Most cameras can easily go to a greater multiple of their bases sensitivity.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
05-17-2012, 05:55 PM
I'll be using my BMCC mostly for corporate and some broadcast shooting.

I'm really looking forward to the BMCC delivering the specs currently on the BmD website. Any additional capabilities which may or may not materialize at a later date via firmware update(s) will be nice, but I have one on pre-order because of what BmD says it'll do when it ships.

A box with a sensor, compatible with many of the lenses I own. 3 very high-quality recording formats. Full manual control with pretty much no auto anything. High-quality audio recording & A/V monitoring. Limited but highly useful features. A relatively low price.

Can't wait. :-)

Kholi
05-17-2012, 06:02 PM
Another strange statement is that it has a base of 800 ISO but it cannot be pushed past 1600 ISO. Really why not? Most cameras can easily go to a greater multiple of their bases sensitivity.

You're talking about a video camera, still.

Even if RED can show you a higher ISO, it doesn't really matter at all. You could easily set the same ISO and get the same exact image in REDcine.

That's why you just light to 800 and call it a day.

nickjbedford
05-17-2012, 06:30 PM
Another strange statement is that it has a base of 800 ISO but it cannot be pushed past 1600 ISO. Really why not? Most cameras can easily go to a greater multiple of their bases sensitivity.

Considering it's designed for productions, at least low budget ones, you usually don't really want to be shooting past ISO 1600 unless you really can't do anything about the lighting of the scene. ISO 1600 at 1/48th at f/2.0 is probably bright enough to get some nice detail in a night city scene without getting too much noise (guesstimate from experience). When you're photographing with a D-SLR you have the advantage of more than 125% resolution. You're often oversampling from an 18-20mp raw file. While it's great that the BMC is more than 1080p, it's not a great deal more that you can't think about noise level.

When it comes to cameras like the C300, they can get away with higher gain as they are oversampling from 4K HD resoluton, not 2.5K.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 06:32 PM
You're talking about a video camera, still.

Even if RED can show you a higher ISO, it doesn't really matter at all. You could easily set the same ISO and get the same exact image in REDcine.

That's why you just light to 800 and call it a day.

not in ProRes, there it does make a difference. even the BM rep admitted that

nickjbedford
05-17-2012, 06:38 PM
not in ProRes, there it does make a difference. even the BM rep admitted that

You may be able to push it a little in ProRes, but it would really be worth simply testing the idea and seeing how the results pan out. Otherwise, I'd be lighting for ISO 800, or using a really wide aperture at ISO 1600 if you can't.

Jon Neely
05-17-2012, 07:15 PM
They will listen, if it means selling more cameras and them making more money, they better listen.

Note Suwanchote
05-17-2012, 07:33 PM
definitely good info here
i personally cannot wait for this camera and the usage can vary greatly,

laco
05-17-2012, 07:42 PM
You may be able to push it a little in ProRes, but it would really be worth simply testing the idea and seeing how the results pan out. Otherwise, I'd be lighting for ISO 800, or using a really wide aperture at ISO 1600 if you can't.

again.. I just can't tell people how good Prores can be.. Just ask those who use Alexas and they're pushing the footage 1-2 stops...of course it's paired with a sensor that has 15stops of DR, but still...I think Prores recording will give you 90% of the possibilities in post compared to RAW, but 20% the size.

mhood
05-17-2012, 07:55 PM
It may be a deal breaker for some, but consider the alternative of BMD releasing a 2.5k uncompressed raw camera capable of shooting at 60 fps for a price of (guessing) $8000.

How about 60p in ProResHQ via a free software update in a few months?

jimagine
05-17-2012, 08:01 PM
So music videos and sports are not cinema? Watch "Life Cycles" and you'll see why higher frame rates are a must. What about "The Art of Flight". These films were big budget productions (several millions of dollars). I think lack of 60p is a major strategic mistake. It will be a deal barker for a lot of people, who film that kind of work.

Of course we want the ability to shoot Pro Res at higher frame rates if it's possible.

It's strange for some to suggest any BMC user wouldn't.
Cinema cameras are hardly exclusively for projected movies. Day to day, they're probably used more for commercials.
We make our living producing high end TV spots and promo films, where slo-mo is an essential option as it is in our straight narrative work.

So pro res at the highest possible frame rate should hardly be an after thought for the BM team even if they're looking at this as a primarily Cinema camera, which I've always understood.

Give us 50-60p pro res and it will give us great pro res to cut with our raw 24 p footage.

It's just common sense if the sensor will allow for it. It should be a forethought, not an afterthought.

Gwangjuboy
05-17-2012, 08:35 PM
Not having high frame rates is not a deal breaker for a $3,000 cinema camera. Pick the 100 top movies of all time and probably you wouldn't have hardly any scenes with slow motion. Its a small creative limitation that most here won't make their poor work shine any brighter. Slow motion seems to be a short cut to creating faux emotion honestly from filmakers that cant produce a decent idea without gimicks. Damit the amount of slow motion tests on Vimeo when the Red Epic came out was unbearable.

And if you desperately need a slow motion shot there is software or just use a cheap DSLR.

Brian@202020
05-17-2012, 08:36 PM
Of course we want the ability to shoot Pro Res at higher frame rates if it's possible.

It's strange for some to suggest any BMC user wouldn't.
Cinema cameras are hardly exclusively for projected movies. Day to day, they're probably used more for commercials.
We make our living producing high end TV spots and promo films, where slo-mo is an essential option as it is in our straight narrative work.

So pro res at the highest possible frame rate should hardly be an after thought for the BM team even if they're looking at this as a primarily Cinema camera, which I've always understood.

Give us 50-60p pro res and it will give us great pro res to cut with our raw 24 p footage.

It's just common sense if the sensor will allow for it. It should be a forethought, not an afterthought.

I have a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, and since January it went from only recording uncompressed to 3 different formats so far, and the rumor is ProRes is on the way which would make it 4. They also added all kinds of record triggering in the updates. Blackmagic has a history of adding functionality via firmware updates frequently. Eventually it'll do most of what people want I'm sure. For the release I'll be happy with the specs announced because I know over a few months we'll get a lot more.

Andrew
05-17-2012, 08:41 PM
How about 60p in ProResHQ via a free software update in a few months?

Sure... sign me up, but are we actually expecting this to happen or is it just wishful thinking?

Dan Pears
05-17-2012, 08:58 PM
I think the forethought of this camera is budget cinema camera with the highest possible RAW images for the lowest possible price. And BMD seem to plan on delivering that.

Sure, I'd love 50/60p in ProRes or RAW, but I'd rather a $3000 camera that records up to 30p than a $5000 camera that shoots 50/60p.

With the FS-700 coming out soon I'm more than happy for a client to pay the rental on that to get specialised high speed shots.

mhood
05-17-2012, 08:59 PM
^^^Who knows but I did read (in this thread IIRC) that a BMD rep said that higher framerates were possible in ProRes but not RAW. IMHO, BMD will move past this "it's a CINEMA camera" thing pretty quickly.

pcenginefx
05-17-2012, 09:05 PM
I have a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, and since January it went from only recording uncompressed to 3 different formats so far, and the rumor is ProRes is on the way which would make it 4. They also added all kinds of record triggering in the updates. Blackmagic has a history of adding functionality via firmware updates frequently. Eventually it'll do most of what people want I'm sure. For the release I'll be happy with the specs announced because I know over a few months we'll get a lot more.

I bought the Hyperdeck Shuttle back in November, not knowing they were going to be releasing a new model shortly thereafter that had additional functionality. BMD added additional processing to the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, so none of the upgrades were possible on the original via a FW update. Needless to say, I was not very happy. Do I expect to get screwed somehow buying the 1st generation BMDCC? From my past experience with BMD, that answer is yes. I'm still going to be buying the 1st gen camera, but there will only be a few FW updates until we get the Cinema Camera 2 with some big new feature not possible on the 1st gen cam..

jimagine
05-17-2012, 10:05 PM
Not having high frame rates is not a deal breaker for a $3,000 cinema camera. Pick the 100 top movies of all time and probably you wouldn't have hardly any scenes with slow motion. Its a small creative limitation that most here won't make their poor work shine any brighter. Slow motion seems to be a short cut to creating faux emotion honestly from filmakers that cant produce a decent idea without gimicks. Damit the amount of slow motion tests on Vimeo when the Red Epic came out was unbearable.

And if you desperately need a slow motion shot there is software or just use a cheap DSLR.

Please don't be condescending. I know you have an opinion but it's not worth being demeaning. If you think slo mo is a gimmick you don't do much high end broadcast work.

If you over-use anything it's not good but professionals who know their craft understand how to use things tastefully.
It's why we get the contracts that we do and have the successful companies that we do.

A request for a feature that BM has already said is possible (increased frame rates) in Pro Res is hardly out of line, gimmicky or anything other than a reasonable and professional request for everyday professional use.

Thank you.

bumkicho
05-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Has anyone asked the rep about variable frame rates up to 30fps? How'bout 1fps at 360 shutter angle?

Andrew
05-17-2012, 10:36 PM
Kholi said there was no mention of variable frame rates. I'm really hoping for it, including 1fps at 360 degree shutter angle like you mentioned.

nickjbedford
05-17-2012, 10:44 PM
Hasn't BMD said a number of times that while it's possible in the tech, they're making sure their initial release (and firmware) is fully up to scratch? I'd rather them release a solid product than release something that has a bunch of bells and whistles and bugs and issues to go along with them.

imdjay
05-17-2012, 10:47 PM
how about we make the so called 'list' of questions for them, and i'll be sure to get them on record or better yet on camera with their responses. throw out the questions and i'll update this posting with the list.

My initial questions for them are...

1-Do they anticipate any higher ISOs, and since they have stated it is not a low light camera, what other camera can we expect it to perform like at higher ISOs
2-Variable framerates? interval/timelapse?
3-Do they have an idea of when they plan to release future firmware updates? what will they have and what are the highest priority
4-Do they even have plans for a second camera, and if so, do they aim for a year later, two years, etc... and what do they have in mind for it
5-If the internal battery dies....
6-What other accessories do you have planned?
7-Do they believe it Is if feasible for an experienced machinist, ala duclos, to do an m43 conversion?
8-Is there any other industry they plan to surprise? (gaming console, lenses, carmel apples, etc...)
9-What is the pixel refresh rate
10-Confirm that you can use a TB to hdmi adapter
11-Phantom power? even just one would be enough
12-How much abuse can it take? any weathersealing?
13-will you be able to make a crop mode to work with s16 lenses?

obviously some things are folly since the camera is hardware locked, but certainly no reason not to be thorough.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 11:04 PM
How about 60p in ProResHQ via a free software update in a few months?

They indicated that that request was their number one request and they were considering it.

Philip Lipetz
05-17-2012, 11:10 PM
Has anyone asked the rep about variable frame rates up to 30fps? How'bout 1fps at 360 shutter angle?

That s a possibility for launch version

Andrew
05-17-2012, 11:21 PM
Hasn't BMD said a number of times that while it's possible in the tech, they're making sure their initial release (and firmware) is fully up to scratch? I'd rather them release a solid product than release something that has a bunch of bells and whistles and bugs and issues to go along with them.

I agree. Releasing the camera as it's currently spec'd for $3000 is their first priority. Even if they don't add anything extra, it's still a killer camera at a killer price. Many of us are just curious about the possibility of some features being added (before or after shipment).

I hope it's an easy job for them to add variable frame rates because it would be so useful and imho it is a feature that a cinema camera should have over a video camera. I don't view variable frame rates as a bell or whistle. :)

BMD can be as open or as closed about their plans as they want to be. It's their business. I don't think they will be sidetracked or misguided by questions and requests posted online. They seem competent and focused. I see little harm in asking questions or making reasonable/constructive requests.

Andrew
05-17-2012, 11:23 PM
They indicated that that request was their number one request and they were considering it.

Awesome! Thanks for the news. Good to know they're listening and doing what they can.

laco
05-18-2012, 02:55 AM
Has anyone asked the rep about variable frame rates up to 30fps? How'bout 1fps at 360 shutter angle?
I'm interested in the shutter angles too. I hope it's easy to modify the software.

Because of the EF mount, I think BMD targeted the current DSLR owners. I know it's not the right way to use it like that, but a lot of people - instead of using NDs - just simply changes the shutter speed to a faster shutter speed.
If the BMC won't have high shutter speed option, we will be forced to buy NDs too, or we will need to stop down on sunny days.

As for the slow-mo, John Brawley mentioned - which is true for all cameras - that shooting slow mo to a compressed format will require much more CPU usage. The camera would have to compress twice the data every second. Of course this could lead to heat issues.
So if we say, then record to RAW - because it's easier for the CPU -, then we face with need for a very high write speed.
60fps 2.5K RAW would need 260MB/s (not megabit, but megabyte). (and again don't let the numbers fool you, most current SSDs that advertise with a much higher data rate could be much slower when writing incompressible data)

Grug
05-18-2012, 04:10 AM
I'm interested in the shutter angles too. I hope it's easy to modify the software.

Because of the EF mount, I think BMD targeted the current DSLR owners. I know it's not the right way to use it like that, but a lot of people - instead of using NDs - just simply changes the shutter speed to a faster shutter speed.
If the BMC won't have high shutter speed option, we will be forced to buy NDs too, or we will need to stop down on sunny days.


I'd say again, that it comes back to the word 'cinema' in the camera's title. Cinema cameras require external filters to control look and exposure, they always have. Built-in NDs are a lovely convenience, but they're a video camera feature (where speed and versatility are the key operational considerations), and leaving them off a 'cinema' oriented camera is nothing to get into a huff about.

laco
05-18-2012, 05:25 AM
I'd say again, that it comes back to the word 'cinema' in the camera's title. Cinema cameras require external filters to control look and exposure, they always have. Built-in NDs are a lovely convenience, but they're a video camera feature (where speed and versatility are the key operational considerations), and leaving them off a 'cinema' oriented camera is nothing to get into a huff about.

I know, I know, cinemacinemacinema, and will they include a speaker too, that loops a rolling Arri film camera sound?:)
So yes, they are targeting "pro" shooters, but even the Arri Alexa has 5.0º shutter angle option...dotdotdot

And this is not like asking for a different lens mount:) Only a software change, and maybe could be done via a firmware upgrade.

Gwangjuboy
05-18-2012, 05:54 AM
Please don't be condescending. I know you have an opinion but it's not worth being demeaning. If you think slo mo is a gimmick you don't do much high end broadcast work.

If you over-use anything it's not good but professionals who know their craft understand how to use things tastefully.
It's why we get the contracts that we do and have the successful companies that we do.

A request for a feature that BM has already said is possible (increased frame rates) in Pro Res is hardly out of line, gimmicky or anything other than a reasonable and professional request for everyday professional use.

Thank you.

While this camera is high quality I don't think its 'high end'. Surely a RED or Arri would be high end. At best its meant to supplement high end work with other cameras. Clearly its a budget high quality cinema camera with limitations to keep the price low.

mhood
05-18-2012, 06:19 AM
Please don't be condescending. I know you have an opinion but it's not worth being demeaning.

But...but...but...It's a CINEMA camera...

:-)

John Brawley
05-18-2012, 06:44 AM
So if we say, then record to RAW - because it's easier for the CPU -, then we face with need for a very high write speed.
60fps 2.5K RAW would need 260MB/s (not megabit, but megabyte). (and again don't let the numbers fool you, most current SSDs that advertise with a much higher data rate could be much slower when writing incompressible data)

Guys.

It's not as simply as the data rate on the SSD....

It's not as simple as the sensor being able to do it....

Believe me if they could do it easily they would.....

Right now the only way they could would be to start with a new camera that was larger/more expensive / required more cooling/ used a lot more power....

That's not BMD's MO....

jb

bumkicho
05-18-2012, 08:17 AM
What I expect to receive is what it says on its spec page of various retail sites (e.g. BH). I will be extremely happy if BMD just nails it to its spec. I just don't see how BMD can add more features to it before its release in July when they are still working on its main features. BMD may add additional features as they become possible and available through firmware updates.

It would be nice, however, if BMD could talk about which features they are seriously considering to add and which features they are not. I would think they have a pretty good idea on what could be expected in phase 2 after release.

The_One_and_Only
05-18-2012, 08:27 AM
Oh and I really have no idea how much it might actually cost to design a BMC that shoots 60p. Any ideas? I think it might need to sell for more than my guess of $8000 though. Or do you think that's a high estimate?

$10, but for us, we will have to source the fastest drives.

Philip Lipetz
05-18-2012, 08:28 AM
the BM rep said that the cam will have only shutter angles at launch, and then only certain ones but I forget which ones.

Tzedekh
05-18-2012, 08:54 AM
the BM rep said that the cam will have only shitter angles at launch, and then only cetain ones but I forget which ones.
I assume the presence of both "BM" and "shitter" in this sentence was only an extraordinary coincidence and not intended.

Philip Lipetz
05-18-2012, 09:36 AM
I assume the presence of both "BM" and "shitter" in this sentence was only an extraordinary coincidence and not intended.

I am dyslexic, have nerve damage that makes typing difficult, and usually post on an iPhone, a horrible combination. The properly spelled posts are when I get home to my voice dictation system. Hard to believe that I wrote best selling books, got to love my editors.

mhood
05-18-2012, 09:39 AM
I for one appreciated the laugh. TYVM! :-)

karn105
05-18-2012, 11:25 AM
An Alexa studio would be worse.


800 ISO is as fast as any motion picture film stock ever was. I don't think Kodak or Fuji even offer an 800 ISO film anymore.


Perfect example of the type of shooting where I would think the BMC would be most ill-suited. I'm sure someone will do it, I'm sure someone will even post a video to "prove" that it can be done, but -- I think the BMC would be the worst possible camera on the market for that type of shooting, except possibly a Red One. And the reason I say the Red One is worse is not because of a feature difference, but because the Red is a lot bigger and heavier with all the same cine-oriented drawbacks for this type of shooting.

Philip Lipetz
05-18-2012, 02:33 PM
I for one appreciated the laugh. TYVM! :-)

Naw, was not feeling offended. I thought it was funny too. Just taking advantage of the opening to explain the many errors within my posts. Sort of my apology for making people struggle past errors.

Barry Green
05-18-2012, 02:36 PM
While this camera is high quality I don't think its 'high end'. Surely a RED or Arri would be high end. At best its meant to supplement high end work with other cameras. Clearly its a budget high quality cinema camera with limitations to keep the price low.
Almost 100% agreed. Only thing I disagree here with is the phrasing of "with limitations to keep the price low"; I'd phrase it the other way around, being -- there's only so much you can put into a camera this inexpensive. The price tag is the limiting factor, methinks.

Barry Green
05-18-2012, 02:37 PM
But...but...but...It's a CINEMA camera...

:-)
Yes. It's the BlackMagic CINEMA Camera. Says so right in the name. That's who they designed it for, that's who they're marketing it to. If someone chooses to put it to a different use, well, hey, that's up to the end user, and the burden of workarounds and modifications and whatnot is on them. But who it's designed for and marketed to is the cinema-style shooter.

You could buy a Honda Civic and saw the roof off it and remove the rear window and pull the trunk off and use it to haul a sheet of plywood if you wanted to. Or you could buy a pickup truck. Two different approaches, but I know which route I would take. Even if the Civic was cheaper, and I owned a hacksaw already, I'd still go for the pickup truck...

Barry Green
05-18-2012, 02:39 PM
An Alexa studio would be worse.

Agreed. The Alexa Studio is a brilliant camera, and would be horribly out of place in such an environment.

mhood
05-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Yes. It's the BlackMagic CINEMA Camera. Says so right in the name.

Shall we wax Shakespearean? As you pointed out years ago, a DSLR is designed to be a stills camera and is not targeted for video use. There are many better options. Yet very many of us adapted to the limitations of the DSLRs and quickly became comfortable with the workarounds and modifications inherent in their use. IOW, lots of us not doing projection projects have become "cinema-style" shooters. I am very comfortable working with my 7D and fully expect the BMC to fit like a glove.

Of course, BMD might refuse to sell their "cinema" CAMERA to folks like me but I doubt it very much. I fully expect the vast majority of BMC users will be recording ProRes anyway and I doubt a successful company like BMD will fail to notice that.

Do you think Nikon expected their D90 to start a revolution? I own an SS Camaro LS3. If I paint a number on the door, can I call myself a NASCAR pro?

Andrew
05-18-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm sure we'll see BMD's "box with a sensor inside" used for many different styles of shooting, but I agree that the end user should take a good hard look at why they are choosing the BMC and make sure it's the best investment for them.

Tzedekh
05-18-2012, 03:32 PM
You could buy a Honda Civic and saw the roof off it and remove the rear window and pull the trunk off and use it to haul a sheet of plywood if you wanted to. Or you could buy a pickup truck. Two different approaches, but I know which route I would take. Even if the Civic was cheaper, and I owned a hacksaw already, I'd still go for the pickup truck...
And don't do it while your Civic is still under warranty -- it'll void your warranty. And don't try this at home. No, wait, maybe you need to try this at home, unless you have a body shop somewhere else.

Taikonaut
05-18-2012, 04:57 PM
Almost 100% agreed. Only thing I disagree here with is the phrasing of "with limitations to keep the price low"; I'd phrase it the other way around, being -- there's only so much you can put into a camera this inexpensive. The price tag is the limiting factor, methinks.


Yes. It's the BlackMagic CINEMA Camera. Says so right in the name. That's who they designed it for, that's who they're marketing it to. If someone chooses to put it to a different use, well, hey, that's up to the end user, and the burden of workarounds and modifications and whatnot is on them. But who it's designed for and marketed to is the cinema-style shooter.

You could buy a Honda Civic and saw the roof off it and remove the rear window and pull the trunk off and use it to haul a sheet of plywood if you wanted to. Or you could buy a pickup truck. Two different approaches, but I know which route I would take. Even if the Civic was cheaper, and I owned a hacksaw already, I'd still go for the pickup truck...
Hi,
I've pre-ordered a BM camera like many on here and been reading this forum for over a week but this is my first post. Sorry for sounding harsh but let not delude ourselves and start trumping up something purely on its name. Just because it says "Cinema" does not mean it is built with just cinema in mind. It is just a name pure and simple. I suppose they could call it "BMD Video Camera" but that doesnt quite have the marketing ringtone. However to say it is aimed primarily for cinema style filming sounded elitist. The following is stated on BMD website about their "Cinema" camera and it clearly tells us that it aimed for a wide variety of use not just cinema
"Blackmagic Cinema Camera features a high resolution sensor with wide dynamic range so it’s perfect for independent film, television commercials and episodic television production. DaVinci Resolve software for Mac™ and Windows™ is included so you can work at the highest quality and get the best results. Blackmagic Cinema Camera is both affordable and a complete solution because it includes a built-in recorder and monitoring, so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

Regarding the price especially when you consider Resolve 9 thrown in practically giving it away does make one think BMD is trying to tie us in to their product and then profit from us with future software and hardware releases.

nickjbedford
05-18-2012, 05:42 PM
it’s perfect for independent film, television commercials and episodic television production.

Then again, most of those target markets are all production based, not run and gun documentary style shooting relying sometimes on low-light performance.

Barry Green
05-18-2012, 05:57 PM
Then again, most of those target markets are all production based, not run and gun documentary style shooting relying sometimes on low-light performance.
Yes, I would classify all of those as "cinema-style" shooting. I mean, presuming we're talking about high-budget national-caliber television commercials, and not something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ff1qqFnvg&feature=player_embedded

Barry Green
05-18-2012, 05:59 PM
Or this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4-e4nlfdRI&feature=player_embedded

Yeah, that's not "cinema"...

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-18-2012, 06:01 PM
Hmmm... wonder how many discussions they had about color space on that set?

Taikonaut
05-18-2012, 06:01 PM
BMD does 30fps, is that cinema?

mhood
05-18-2012, 06:07 PM
However to say it is aimed primarily for cinema style filming sounded elitist.

I have concluded that there is a very good reason for that. ;-)


"it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

Just light my kid's basketball game or my daughter's wedding for 800 ISO and call it a day.

laco
05-18-2012, 07:25 PM
Just light my kid's basketball game or my daughter's wedding for 800 ISO and call it a day.
:D Great one.
Also please make sure that there is no more difference than 13 stops between the bride's, and the groom's dress:)

Andrew
05-18-2012, 07:55 PM
:D Great one.
Also please make sure that there is no more difference than 13 stops between the bride's, and the groom's dress:)

Assuming the groom is wearing a light dress it should be fine ;)

Note Suwanchote
05-18-2012, 08:03 PM
What I'm excited about is not seeing all those dslr "cinema" looks anymore
the ones with the crushed everything and blue or greenish hue

nickjbedford
05-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Would you rather it be called the Blackmagic Design Production-based Not-Run-And-Gun Filming Camera? I just see "Cinema Camera" as a blanket term for those types of uses.

Andrew
05-18-2012, 08:29 PM
What I'm excited about is not seeing all those dslr "cinema" looks anymore
the ones with the crushed everything and blue or greenish hue

Don't worry, you'll still see plenty of that.

mhood
05-18-2012, 08:34 PM
Would you rather it be called the Blackmagic Design Production-based Not-Run-And-Gun Filming Camera? I just see "Cinema Camera" as a blanket term for those types of uses.

I don't care what you call it or what you shoot with it or how you shoot it. Just don't tell me what or how I'm supposed to be shooting with mine. Fair enough? Deal?

nickjbedford
05-18-2012, 08:51 PM
I don't care what you call it or what you shoot with it or how you shoot it. Just don't tell me what or how I'm supposed to be shooting with mine. Fair enough? Deal?

Not telling you how to shoot it at all. Just saying what BMD has designed it for.

mhood
05-18-2012, 09:03 PM
"Blackmagic Cinema Camera features a high resolution sensor with wide dynamic range so it’s perfect for independent film, television commercials and episodic television production. DaVinci Resolve software for Mac™ and Windows™ is included so you can work at the highest quality and get the best results. Blackmagic Cinema Camera is both affordable and a complete solution because it includes a built-in recorder and monitoring, so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

Try reading it slower... LOL!

Philip Lipetz
05-18-2012, 11:38 PM
"Blackmagic Cinema Camera features a high resolution sensor with wide dynamic range so it’s perfect for independent film, television commercials and episodic television production. DaVinci Resolve software for Mac™ and Windows™ is included so you can work at the highest quality and get the best results. Blackmagic Cinema Camera is both affordable and a complete solution because it includes a built-in recorder and monitoring, so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

Try reading it slower... LOL!

Yes, they setup the expectation that it is a video camera and now they cannot deliver on time except by cutting down on features. Wait can give us a better camera. As far as being confdent of an upgrade please remember that the orginal hyperdeck was not upgraded, you had to buy the new model.

Gwangjuboy
05-18-2012, 11:56 PM
Arguing about the name of the camera? This thing needs to come soon so we can discuss something useful.

Taikonaut
05-19-2012, 02:57 AM
Would you rather it be called the Blackmagic Design Production-based Not-Run-And-Gun Filming Camera? I just see "Cinema Camera" as a blanket term for those types of uses.

They could call it "BlackMagic Design Epic Camera" but some might think it is only for shooting "epics":)

Can you imagine going to a camera store and you ask to try the "BMD Epic Camera", the sale assistance said "Are you shooting an epic? If not I would recommend you try something else" :)

Kholi
05-19-2012, 03:01 AM
It's difficult for me to understand how the very obvious cinema workflow doesn't mean that the camera was built for cinema-style production.

It's got a copy of resolve with it... It's primarily a CinemaDNG camera... You can use it for whatever you want but it's your choice to use a tool that's clearly not made for that purpose.

Taikonaut
05-19-2012, 03:20 AM
It's difficult for me to understand how the very obvious cinema workflow doesn't mean that the camera was built for cinema-style production.

It's got a copy of resolve with it... It's primarily a CinemaDNG camera... You can use it for whatever you want but it's your choice to use a tool that's clearly not made for that purpose.

Times have changed. I remember 9 years ago when same thing was said by some saying shooting RAW on dSLR was considered a workflow for professionals only while none pros should stick to jpeg.

RyGuy
05-19-2012, 07:07 AM
Or this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4-e4nlfdRI&feature=player_embedded

Yeah, that's not "cinema"...

Barry do you just keep these on hand for these exact situations?

Kingswell
05-19-2012, 07:07 AM
Dunno bout the rest of you but i'm calling mine Sophie.

nickjbedford
05-19-2012, 07:30 AM
Dunno bout the rest of you but i'm calling mine Sophie.

Consuela :P

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/195399_100002265708252_7210343_n.jpg

mhood
05-19-2012, 08:35 AM
You can use it for whatever you want but it's your choice to use a tool that's clearly not made for that purpose.

I'm gonna stick with BMD's recommendation and shoot sporting events only with mine...in ProRes...709...available light...I might even run....and gun...

:-)

andrew cheng
05-19-2012, 08:47 AM
This “cinema camera" and " video camera" argument presented in earlier posts makes me recall the argument of "35mm film VS digital film" not long ago when many perceived 35mm film as cinema and video non-cinema. In my film school years, 35mm works are regarded as professional and cinema, and digital video works amateur. "Film Australia" just changes its name as "Screen Australia" to avoid above conception.

I am curious what the percentage of people who have the resource/reputation to raise the budget of making a "cinema product" with the involvement of set lighting, focus pulling, onset monitor, boom sound recording, etc, are attracted to BMC due to the cheapness of several thousand dollars than another RAW camera Scarlet with a more mature RAW post pipeline plus less cost in storage of compressed raw and 4k resolution. Couldn't help but ask this question: IF BMC is ONLY equipped with CinemaDNG WITHOUT prores and dnxhd and is released in July when assumingly native editing on CinemaDNG was not quite ready, then who is going to buy this camera? Film school students of old thoughts who are using it as a cheap way of imitating 35mm film production paradiam, or big name directors who want to save money for their project? How many sales would that be? Is it going to be a "mind-blowing" news as was on 2012 NAB?

I am buying this camera is because I want to use it as a field camera for a project shooting in a very remote area, which mobility of camera, BBC quality of codec and shared usage of Canon fast lenses with my Canon 5D for stills, are required. In this sense, BMC codec advantage of prores or dnxhd, not the capability of OVERKILLING uncompressed raw recording which needs huge storage space, does matter.:)

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 09:20 AM
Guys, BM set the expectation, and just because a few of us may be experienced enough to know the difference between a cine cam and a video camera that does not mean that BM does have total responsibility for the storm that is going to happen when people follow the BM marketing hype and use the camera for exactly what BM said it was designed for and what it is clearly (to us at least) not able to do with any degree of grace or sophistication.

Just because BM may backtrack in the future it does not mean that their guarantee of implied merchandisability was accurate, and potentially the source of significant problems.

If Kohli or Barry purchase a BMCC they know what they are getting, but if others do they have been tricked. Just saying that a car can carry sand and gravel does mean that a car should carry sand and gravel, and those true but misleading claims do not make it into a pickup truck.

Is BM a fraud or delibrately misleading, no. These are just the problems of a a good hearted company run by a group of very sophisticated imaging amateurs trying to enter the imaging game. However, be aware that early purchasers are paying for BM's education, and that many many other unanticipated problems will pop up after delivery of the camera.

Did Jim Jannard lie when he advertised the fixed Scarlet that never shipped, no; ut many problems appeared after they reached the same stage as BM is with this camera, a working prototype, and Jim made the decision that rather than offer a crippled camera that could never meet expectations he would kill the project and instead offer a scaled down version of the existing Epic design. BM is a much smaller imagining company with less of a track record, and they may not be able to deliver what is implied by their early claims and their inclusion of compressed formats.

Just putting in compressed formats and not supporting them fully is misleading, yet that is what is happening with crippled or missing controls that you have reasonable expect to have with any camera that delivers footage with final images baked in during shooting.

mhood
05-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Don't you think any of us who have been applying a DSLR to our production needs will be able to work within the constraints of the BMID (Imaging Device)? Now the use of RAW and Resolve is an option in the BMID that I'll be giving a pass...at least initially. I have to maintain portability and I'm not about to cough up more than the price of the ID for a workstation that is ready to run Resolve...that's just not going to happen anytime soon. So I'll be recording mostly ProRes...LOG if I can develop acceptable presets in Premier CS5.5 (or 6 if I have to), or 709 if that's the only way the ID can serve my particular situation. Is that "cinema style"? I have grown very fond of shooting with my 7D...is that "cinema style"?

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 10:18 AM
Don't you think any of us who have been applying a DSLR to our production needs will be able to work within the constraints of the BMID (Imaging Device)? Now the use of RAW and Resolve is an option in the BMID that I'll be giving a pass...at least initially. I have to maintain portability and I'm not about to cough up more than the price of the ID for a workstation that is ready to run Resolve...that's just not going to happen anytime soon. So I'll be recording mostly ProRes...LOG if I can develop acceptable presets in Premier CS5.5 (or 6 if I have to), or 709 if that's the only way the ID can serve my particular situation. Is that "cinema style"? I have grown very fond of shooting with my 7D...is that "cinema style"?

but the cam does not have all the compressed format controls you expect, and when I asked the BM rep about this I was told that this should be thought of as a RAW camera only. Not understanding this, partially due ot misleading early statements made by BM, is the source of many people thinking that this camera is like a DSLR when it is not,

mhood
05-19-2012, 10:29 AM
^^^If I get it and can't make it work, I'll drop it like a sack of rocks on anyone I can find who fancies themselves a cinematographer. But if I have iris control, can set an approximate WB and can do some ISO adjustment, I MIGHT can make the ProRes LOG work for me using only Premier on my laptop. I understand the 13 stops of DR are still there in ProResHQ, so maybe it can happen. Recording decent audio in camera and actually having a headphone jack are two pluses that make it worth a shot anyway. Even if I have to dump the BMID, my 7D kit is still intact...I can still go to work the next day.

BTW: I just imported my first C300 MXF file into Premier CS5 on my laptop...jaw dropping stuff...and ready to edit without issue. If the BMID doesn't work out for me, I'm saving my money for a C300 (maybe a used one now that the C500 is imminent)...unless the "C" stands for "Cinema" and you guys tell me I can't use it.

:-)

taz291819
05-19-2012, 12:25 PM
We're going to be using these cameras to replace our SD JVC Digital-S ENG cameras. We use these cameras in our studio (with full lighting control, it's quite a big studio) and in the field.

I'm not worried about use in the studio, since we have full lighting control. As long as we can control iris and WB, we're fine. Our only problem is if BMD is going to make the HD-SDI output from the camera compatible with their ATEM switchers, as they currently aren't compatible.

For field work, we do two things; local commercials and college football games. For local commercials, I'll shoot in RAW, and fix everything in post via Resolve and Premiere Pro.

For college football, this is going to be the trickiest part. I'll shoot that in ProRes (709), but the tricky part will be getting use to controlling everything. Currently, I shoot the games in the media booth on a tripod with handle bars, with full control of zoom, focus, start/stop recording at my fingertips. Is it going to be a challenge shooting football without servo zoom? Of course it is. Will I get use to it? Absolutely!

I do need to make it clear that the games aren't aired live, we shoot the games for highlights for the coaches show we produce in our studio. Since I edit the footage down to about 10 minutes, it's not the end of the world if I screw up a certain play, as I can fix it (as best I can) in post. As long as it's in focus, I'm good.

With that said, do I think this camera is designed for our use? For the studio and commercial production, sure. For football, no. But I'm savvy enough to make it work, just gotta determine the right lens. At first, I was skeptical since some games are shot at night under stadium lights. But after seeing John's dusk footage, I believe it'll be fine.

PaulDelVecchio
05-19-2012, 12:25 PM
So now that this is way off topic and we're arguing over the name of the camera (really?!), let's bring it back and let me ask... who's going to the event in NYC? I'm going to be there. Any questions people would like us in attendance to ask?

mhood
05-19-2012, 12:29 PM
due ot misleading early statements made by BM, is the source of many people thinking that this camera is like a DSLR when it is not,

It may change tomorrow but this statement remains on the first BMC product page on the BMD Website:

"so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

PaulDelVecchio
05-19-2012, 12:29 PM
Another thing... do you have to attend the whole event or you can walk in whenever you want and walk up to any piece of equipment you want and start playing/asking questions? Is there a schedule set for the presentation of gear or is it more of a trade show layout where we can walk right up and check out the gear?

taz291819
05-19-2012, 12:35 PM
So now that this is way off topic and we're arguing over the name of the camera (really?!), let's bring it back and let me ask... who's going to the event in NYC? I'm going to be there. Any questions people would like us in attendance to ask?

Paul, if you could ask about it being compatible with their ATEM switchers (either make the switchers compatible, the camera, or release some type of converter), I'd really appreciate it. Via email, BMD told me that this was a highly requested "feature", and that their engineers were aware.

taz291819
05-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Another thing... do you have to attend the whole event or you can walk in whenever you want and walk up to any piece of equipment you want and start playing/asking questions? Is there a schedule set for the presentation of gear or is it more of a trade show layout where we can walk right up and check out the gear?

According to their site, you don't have to attend the entire thing. Also, they said they'll send out a set schedule before the event.

mhood
05-19-2012, 12:41 PM
Any questions people would like us in attendance to ask?

I would like to see them resolve the contradiction between the bmcuser.com camp that says "it's a CINEMA camera for RAW capture and any other use is ill-conceived" and the statement on the BMD Website that says "it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more".

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 12:45 PM
^^^If I get it and can't make it work, I'll drop it like a sack of rocks on anyone I can find who fancies themselves a cinematographer. But if I have iris control, can set an approximate WB and can do some ISO adjustment, I MIGHT can make the ProRes LOG work for me using only Premier on my laptop. I understand the 13 stops of DR are still there in ProResHQ, so maybe it can happen. Recording decent audio in camera and actually having a headphone jack are two pluses that make it worth a shot anyway. Even if I have to dump the BMID, my 7D kit is still intact...I can still go to work the next day.

BTW: I just imported my first C300 MXF file into Premier CS5 on my laptop...jaw dropping stuff...and ready to edit without issue. If the BMID doesn't work out for me, I'm saving my money for a C300 (maybe a used one now that the C500 is imminent)...unless the "C" stands for "Cinema" and you guys tell me I can't use it.

:-)

I shoot with the C300 and it has many many adjustments and controls tht are not on the BMCC.

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 12:48 PM
We're going to be using these cameras to replace our SD JVC Digital-S ENG cameras. We use these cameras in our studio (with full lighting control, it's quite a big studio) and in the field.

I'm not worried about use in the studio, since we have full lighting control. As long as we can control iris and WB, we're fine. Our only problem is if BMD is going to make the HD-SDI output from the camera compatible with their ATEM switchers, as they currently aren't compatible.

For field work, we do two things; local commercials and college football games. For local commercials, I'll shoot in RAW, and fix everything in post via Resolve and Premiere Pro.

For college football, this is going to be the trickiest part. I'll shoot that in ProRes (709), but the tricky part will be getting use to controlling everything. Currently, I shoot the games in the media booth on a tripod with handle bars, with full control of zoom, focus, start/stop recording at my fingertips. Is it going to be a challenge shooting football without servo zoom? Of course it is. Will I get use to it? Absolutely!

I do need to make it clear that the games aren't aired live, we shoot the games for highlights for the coaches show we produce in our studio. Since I edit the footage down to about 10 minutes, it's not the end of the world if I screw up a certain play, as I can fix it (as best I can) in post. As long as it's in focus, I'm good.

With that said, do I think this camera is designed for our use? For the studio and commercial production, sure. For football, no. But I'm savvy enough to make it work, just gotta determine the right lens. At first, I was skeptical since some games are shot at night under stadium lights. But after seeing John's dusk footage, I believe it'll be fine.

the BM rep at the demo, perhaps in a attempt to counter their early PR, repeatedly said the "This is not an ENG or doc or sports camera, and if you try to use it that way you will be disappointed.". He also said that it might evolve into those things but that a launch it would not easily fulfill those roles,
Y

mhood
05-19-2012, 12:52 PM
I shoot with the C300 and it has many many adjustments and controls tht are not on the BMCC.

Understood...not to mention $13K. I'm going to keep an open mind and see for myself...

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 12:54 PM
It may change tomorrow but this statement remains on the first BMC product page on the BMD Website:

"so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

Not what the rep at the BM show said. I strongly suspect that this was their orginal intent and then they found that they could not implement all the features and meet the release deadline.

mhood
05-19-2012, 12:55 PM
in a attempt to counter their early PR

It's not just their "early PR". Go to their Website and see for yourself what they continue to say about the camera.

Maybe they will commit to firmware updates that will meet the expectations their PR cultivates...

Philip Lipetz
05-19-2012, 12:57 PM
It may change tomorrow but this statement remains on the first BMC product page on the BMD Website:

"so it’s perfect for displacing video-only cameras for work such as sporting events, weddings, music videos and more!"

I sstrongly suspect that this wa thier original intent and then they found that they could not implement the needed features and meet th delivery deadline. The rep was very explicit ins aging not count on BM EVER implementing any of the features. he said not to make purchasing decisions based on any support at all for compressed formats, only RAW was a promise that would always go forward.


Another thing... do you have to attend the whole event or you can walk in whenever you want and walk up to any piece of equipment you want and start playing/asking questions? Is there a schedule set for the presentation of gear or is it more of a trade show layout where we can walk right up and check out the gear?


Walk in if all you want is the camera, it there were some great lectures on post workflow, I especially liked the keynote address. the Adobe guy demoed the new Premiere and it seems very impressive and much more visually intuitive than previous versions.

mhood
05-19-2012, 01:05 PM
The rep was very explicit ins aging not count on BM EVER implementing any of the features.

Might that be to the yet-finalized licensing agreements? We have been told that is the reason for the absence of sample ProResHQ footage. Maybe their legal has told them not to commit to anything until the agreements are in place. Maybe their legal doesn't like talking to their PR folks. ;-)

taz291819
05-19-2012, 01:10 PM
the BM rep at the demo, perhaps in a attempt to counter their early PR, repeatedly said the "This is not an ENG or doc or sports camera, and if you try to use it that way you will be disappointed.". He also said that it might evolve into those things but that a launch it would not easily fulfill those roles,
Y

Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that at all, especially since the reps specifically stated that. But as we all know, BMD has a history of releasing products that are of narrow use at first, but after a few months worth of firmware updates, become of much broader use.

I'm not worried about frame rates, as we're currently shooting in SD NTSC interlace. 30p will essentially give me the same "look", so how I shoot will effectively remain the same.

Though, if it's not compatible with the ATEM switchers, it's a total no-go for us, we'll have to choose another option. We haven't even pre-ordered it yet, as we're waiting to see more sample footage once it's released. While we want it the day it comes out, we simply can't take that chance. We're a TV station that doesn't even do news, so our budget is pretty tight.

Kingswell
05-19-2012, 01:15 PM
Consuela :P

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/195399_100002265708252_7210343_n.jpg

HA! Feature request: Consuela voice feedback. "No....No...":D

Kholi
05-19-2012, 01:38 PM
the BM rep at the demo, perhaps in a attempt to counter their early PR, repeatedly said the "This is not an ENG or doc or sports camera, and if you try to use it that way you will be disappointed.". He also said that it might evolve into those things but that a launch it would not easily fulfill those roles,
Y

This is exactly how it was told the entire time I was there. I'm FAIRLY sure that he said it at least four times to various different people, and explained where the camera was going. His favorite quote was about the guy that explained using RED or Alexa twenty days out of the month for major shoots, and the Magic Cam the other ten or something to that effect.

That's the guy shooting commercials and narrative, who gets a smaller budget for the same thing and doesn't want to spend it all on camera gear.

You can always make a camera do whatever you want it to do (to a degree), that doesn't mean the design and initial intent wasn't and isn't for something else.

I mean, what is there to really argue, anyway? If you're going to use it for something else, and you understand what the camera can and cannot do, then use it for something else.

Barry Green
05-19-2012, 01:43 PM
unless the "C" stands for "Cinema" and you guys tell me I can't use it.

Fighting straw men is a tedious and pointless exercise.

Has anyone, anywhere, told you you CAN'T use a BMC or a C300 for what you're talking about? I certainly don't think anyone's said that.

All we've said is -- it's not designed for the purposes you're talking about, and there are other products that are. So why are you so adamant about wanting to pound a square peg into a round hole? Sure, with a big enough hammer you could do it, but -- I mean, unless your goal in life is to "prove us wrong", what's the point really? Why make things harder on yourself than they have to be?

Then again, let's be clear here -- I never got the whole DSLR thing in the first place. Not that I didn't try. I bought a 7D, I bought two GH1s, and I currently have a GH2. And I'm not a slouch -- I accomplished as much or more on a DSLR-type camera than most folks; a film I made with Jack Daniel Stanley on an original, un-hacked GH1 was the opening-night red-carpet gala film that opened Slamdance 2009. So I know it CAN be done. I just didn't care to do it. After trying to pound the square peg of a DSLR into the round hole of professional production, I decided it was too much of a pain in the bum to bother with.

I know there are lots of folks to whom the idea of buying a Zoom H4N and a "cage" and a "rig" and a "loupe" and a USB follow focus and all that stuff, is somehow appealing. They LIKE it. They get excited by the notion of using an unauthorized firmware hack like the GH2 hack or Magic Lantern. They enjoy the idea of using a product for a purpose other than which it was designed. It's fun to them. And hey, if that's your thing, then go and have fun, do whatever you like, nobody's stopping you and nobody is telling you you "can't" do it.

Where I come from, and with the budgets and clients I work with, I don't have time or patience to fool around with workarounds and frankenrigs, nor do I have bandwidth to deal with the vagueries and unreliability of "hacks". That's not my thing. That's not fun.

If you want to shoot a two-hour interview on a 7D, stopping every ten minutes, well ... you go ahead. I would not do that, I'd use a product that is made for and designed for the tasks that I was putting it through.

And yes, to answer your question which wasn't a question, the "C300" is designed specifically for the cinema market, and it is marketed directly to the cinema market. Can it do things other than cinema? Obviously. But there are other cameras that would do sports or news or events better, and cheaper, than the C300, because that's what they're made to do.

taz291819
05-19-2012, 01:45 PM
This is exactly how it was told the entire time I was there. I'm FAIRLY sure that he said it at least four times to various different people, and explained where the camera was going. His favorite quote was about the guy that explained using RED or Alexa twenty days out of the month for major shoots, and the Magic Cam the other ten or something to that effect.

That's the guy shooting commercials and narrative, who gets a smaller budget for the same thing and doesn't want to spend it all on camera gear.

You can always make a camera do whatever you want it to do (to a degree), that doesn't mean the design and initial intent wasn't and isn't for something else.

I mean, what is there to really argue, anyway? If you're going to use it for something else, and you understand what the camera can and cannot do, then use it for something else.

I totally agree, and this can be said for pretty much anything, not just a camera. For instance, our old Echolab Super Switcher wasn't designed for a lot of things we do with it, but we've made it work. A little ingenuity goes a long way.

Barry Green
05-19-2012, 01:48 PM
I'm not worried about frame rates, as we're currently shooting in SD NTSC interlace. 30p will essentially give me the same "look", so how I shoot will effectively remain the same.
30p doesn't look anything like interlaced. Interlaced looks like 60p, not 30p.

Kholi
05-19-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't know who plays video games here, but I play too many...

Adventure games and RPGs are my number ones, survival horror... Resident Evil is a Survival Horror game, in which you get better weapons to defeat stronger zombies and mutated enemies, so on and so forth.

The challenge in games like this, to me, is going through the entire game (which can sometimes be a good 10 hour experience with increases in difficulty that are damning) with the weakest weapon. In the case of Resident Evil, that is a hunting knife. Only the hunting knife, through the ENTIRE game for every enemy. I've done it a number of times, it's something I enjoy doing even though there are NO rewards at all for doing it.

I think there should be! But, there's not a single reward for finishing any game with the weakest weapon (aside from Left 4 Dead, but it's two of the weakest weapons at one time). It's just fun, and it's a direct parallel to how I like to shoot sometimes. With the weakest weapon, because it's challenging and it's fun (when there's not too much at stake), but there isn't REALLY a reward beyond egotistical satisfaction.

So, use whatever the heck you want to use to get through the game, as long as you understand the limitations and danger you're putting yourself in. Trust me, a knife can only do so much damage against a horde of zombies. LoL

taz291819
05-19-2012, 01:55 PM
30p doesn't look anything like interlaced. Interlaced looks like 60p, not 30p.

Going to have to disagree with you Barry, 60i looks like 30p. That's exactly why ESPN chose 720p60 instead of 1080i60.

Barry Green
05-19-2012, 01:59 PM
Going to have to disagree with you Barry, 60i looks like 30p. That's exactly why ESPN chose 720p60 instead of 1080i60.
Have you watched 30p and 60i on the same monitor? They look nothing alike. 30p looks like 24p but with a little bit less strobing.

30p = 30 motion samples per second.
60i = 60 motion samples per second.

30p gives a sort-of-24p sort-of-filmlike look.
60i gives a looking-through-a-window "reality" look.
60p gives a looking-through-a-window "reality" look, but without any interlace edge combing.

Seriously -- 60i looks much much much more like 60p, than it looks like 30p. 30p looks nothing like 60i, at all.

Barry Green
05-19-2012, 02:04 PM
but there isn't REALLY a reward beyond egotistical satisfaction.

So, use whatever the heck you want to use to get through the game, as long as you understand the limitations and danger you're putting yourself in. Trust me, a knife can only do so much damage against a horde of zombies. LoL

Well, an appropriate analogy -- if shooting video is a game to you, play with it. No problem with that. But when it comes to an actual fight on the street, are you going to reach for the knife? I'd reach for the uzi or the flamethrower.

When it's your reputation on the line, it's your name on the line, it's your job on the line -- why wouldn't you bring the uzi?

Kholi
05-19-2012, 02:12 PM
Well, an appropriate analogy -- if shooting video is a game to you, play with it. No problem with that. But when it comes to an actual fight on the street, are you going to reach for the knife? I'd reach for the uzi or the flamethrower.

When it's your reputation on the line, it's your name on the line, it's your job on the line -- why wouldn't you bring the uzi?

Yeah, that's what I meant by "when there's not too much at stake". When it's some big job I'm not gonna shoot a DSLR as a main cam, it'll be a third, quick pick up camera. I actually don't think I've EVER shot a large job on a DSLR, only small gigs.

Flamethrower over uzi, shotgun second.

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-19-2012, 02:20 PM
Do you think the Uzi guys could make a flamethrower attachment? Just sayin' is all. :)

Kholi
05-19-2012, 02:22 PM
Flamethrower Key!

That's actually in Modern Warfare 3 I think. But, I roll with M4A1 and stickies. :B

taz291819
05-19-2012, 02:29 PM
Have you watched 30p and 60i on the same monitor? They look nothing alike. 30p looks like 24p but with a little bit less strobing.

30p = 30 motion samples per second.
60i = 60 motion samples per second.

30p gives a sort-of-24p sort-of-filmlike look.
60i gives a looking-through-a-window "reality" look.
60p gives a looking-through-a-window "reality" look, but without any interlace edge combing.

Seriously -- 60i looks much much much more like 60p, than it looks like 30p. 30p looks nothing like 60i, at all.

I have not shot any actual footage in 30p, only 60i. What I have done is take the 60i footage, de-interlace it in AE, and export it to 29.97p.

Playing back both files on a progressive monitor, motion looks the same.

Mind you, I work in television broadcast, not in the film industry, so it's possible that what I see and "perceive" are totally different than one that works in the cinema industry. Everything I shoot, edit, and produce, ends up on television (we broadcast in 1080i). My stuff doesn't end up in theaters or on Blu-Ray.

EDIT:
And I want to add that I do very little slo-mo work, as even with 60i, I personally don't like the look of it. I do know that shooting in 30p would be even worse than 60i for that.

frubsen
05-19-2012, 02:54 PM
I have not shot any actual footage in 30p, only 60i. What I have done is take the 60i footage, de-interlace it in AE, and export it to 29.97p.

Playing back both files on a progressive monitor, motion looks the same.

Mind you, I work in television broadcast, not in the film industry, so it's possible that what I see and "perceive" are totally different than one that works in the cinema industry. Everything I shoot, edit, and produce, ends up on television (we broadcast in 1080i). My stuff doesn't end up in theaters or on Blu-Ray.

EDIT:
And I want to add that I do very little slo-mo work, as even with 60i, I personally don't like the look of it. I do know that shooting in 30p would be even worse than 60i for that.

30p and 60i are completely different beasts. And they look nothing alike period. There's not even any point debating it. 60i, like Barry said, has 60 motion samples per second, the same as 60p. 30p has only 30 motion samples per second. That is half the amount of 60. They do not look the same. When you deinterlace 60i to 30p, you are throwing away half of the motion samples. It no longer looks the same.

60i, 60p - Reality look
30p - Hybrid Film look
24p - Film look

And for the record, I work in the broadcast industry as well.

taz291819
05-19-2012, 03:57 PM
30p and 60i are completely different beasts. And they look nothing alike period. There's not even any point debating it. 60i, like Barry said, has 60 motion samples per second, the same as 60p. 30p has only 30 motion samples per second. That is half the amount of 60. They do not look the same. When you deinterlace 60i to 30p, you are throwing away half of the motion samples. It no longer looks the same.

60i, 60p - Reality look
30p - Hybrid Film look
24p - Film look

And for the record, I work in the broadcast industry as well.

Trust me, I understand the difference in sampling, but neither I nor our chief engineer see a big difference between 60i and 30p. We easily see the difference in 24p, but not the latter. Some of my footage goes out to NFL teams as well to the NFL Network and ESPN. It's always de-interlaced and encoded to 29.97p, and no one has ever complained. Heck, some was used during this year's NFL draft broadcast, and it looked fine.

To each their own I guess.

nickjbedford
05-19-2012, 07:36 PM
I can tell the difference between 60 frames per second and 30 frames per second. 30fps is still smooth, but nowhere near as seamless and lifelike as 60fps. 60i is 60 half-resolution frames per second. 30p is 30 full resolution frames. It's still twice the frame rate. Laymen could see the difference between 30 and 60 if they were shown explicitly, maybe not without telling them though.

Beyond 48fps being used in the Hobbit, for example, is probably incredibly difficult to see, as video is different to the discrete hard frames found in video games.

taz291819
05-19-2012, 08:32 PM
Trying not to go off-topic, but I went back and looked at some 60i footage I took, and compared the motion to this footage I found online:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeWxtyAit8A&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing such the drastic drop off that others claim to see.

Barry Green
05-20-2012, 01:13 AM
What I have done is take the 60i footage, de-interlace it in AE, and export it to 29.97p.
Ah. Well, by doing that, you've effectively converted your 60i footage into 30p (and thrown away half the vertical resolution in the process). So yes, if that's your workflow, you won't see any difference motion-wise between 30p and de-interlaced 60i, because de-interlaced 60i is actually a low-res 30p.

Curious why you would do that though? Is it just to achieve a filmic look, or ??? Because by de-interlacing, like I said, you're throwing away half your res. And if you're shooting standard-def 60i in the first place, that means you're ending up with 720x240 res, and then broadcasting that out in 1080i...

But if that is your workflow and that's the look you're used to, you should indeed be happy with the BMC's 30p.

Barry Green
05-20-2012, 01:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing such the drastic drop off that others claim to see.

Well, it'd be extremely simple to demonstrate the difference. Just take some of your existing footage, and *don't* de-interlace it.

Take your NTSC standard-def 60i footage, and split-screen it with the same footage de-interlaced, and play that split-screen footage on your television. You should see a massive difference.

Taikonaut
05-20-2012, 02:01 AM
Trying not to go off-topic, but I went back and looked at some 60i footage I took, and compared the motion to this footage I found online:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeWxtyAit8A&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing such the drastic drop off that others claim to see.

I can see the differences of various frame rates clearly out my TV set but not so distinct from my computer screen.

Taikonaut
05-20-2012, 02:53 AM
Guys, BM set the expectation, and just because a few of us may be experienced enough to know the difference between a cine cam and a video camera that does not mean that BM does have total responsibility for the storm that is going to happen when people follow the BM marketing hype and use the camera for exactly what BM said it was designed for and what it is clearly (to us at least) not able to do with any degree of grace or sophistication.

Just because BM may backtrack in the future it does not mean that their guarantee of implied merchandisability was accurate, and potentially the source of significant problems.

If Kohli or Barry purchase a BMCC they know what they are getting, but if others do they have been tricked. Just saying that a car can carry sand and gravel does mean that a car should carry sand and gravel, and those true but misleading claims do not make it into a pickup truck.

Is BM a fraud or delibrately misleading, no. These are just the problems of a a good hearted company run by a group of very sophisticated imaging amateurs trying to enter the imaging game. However, be aware that early purchasers are paying for BM's education, and that many many other unanticipated problems will pop up after delivery of the camera.

Did Jim Jannard lie when he advertised the fixed Scarlet that never shipped, no; ut many problems appeared after they reached the same stage as BM is with this camera, a working prototype, and Jim made the decision that rather than offer a crippled camera that could never meet expectations he would kill the project and instead offer a scaled down version of the existing Epic design. BM is a much smaller imagining company with less of a track record, and they may not be able to deliver what is implied by their early claims and their inclusion of compressed formats.

Just putting in compressed formats and not supporting them fully is misleading, yet that is what is happening with crippled or missing controls that you have reasonable expect to have with any camera that delivers footage with final images baked in during shooting.

So will they take this award off BM because they back track on expectation made about the camera?
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/pressdetails/?releaseID=30388

If it is limiting in so many ways and not suited to shoot many other things beside "cinema" then it is not exactly the "game changer" product we expect it to be. That award might have gone to the Digital Bolex instead. I will believe it when I see it.

Grug
05-20-2012, 05:56 AM
We start to get down to arguing semantics at this point, but that becomes a question of what is 'limiting'? Obviously the BMC isn't designed for ENG style shooting - a simple look at the shape of it tells us that much, so getting irate about those particular lacks of features is silly.

But still, what is limiting? The camera is essentially a sensor-in-a-box, it records high quality footage on a largish sensor, and that's about it. How you choose to use that form factor is up to the individual, butyou don't have access to the sorts of lenses that streamline ENG/sports-style shooting, you don't have much in the way of built in audio recording and you don't have compact file sizes and particularly cheap options for long-form recording. Now none of these things prevent you from making images with the BMC, not in the slightest, they simply mean that there are more convenient options out there for those particular styles of shooting.

That's not limiting, and it's certainly not how BM have pitched the camera so far (beyond a couple of throwaway marketing lines), so what's the problem? It's simply another potential camera choice, so choose what works for you.

nickjbedford
05-20-2012, 07:27 AM
Am I missing something? Did somewhere say that BMD hasn't gotten video codec recording implemented? If the BMDCC delivers on what its website specs describe and the ProRes debayer/oversampling is good, I'll be happy. It otherwise fits the bill for what its designed for, as Phillip stated in one of his posts.

nickjbedford
05-20-2012, 07:59 AM
That's not limiting, and it's certainly not how BM have pitched the camera so far (beyond a couple of throwaway marketing lines), so what's the problem? It's simply another potential camera choice, so choose what works for you.

It's as if there's no other options and people don't seem to know that there are way better cameras out there designed and built exactly for those purposes. It seems pretty obvious what the camera is for and what it's not.

mhood
05-20-2012, 08:09 AM
But still, what is limiting?

RAW only is limiting...very limiting. I wish they'd get the various codec licenses finalized so they can talk freely about the video codecs and even release some footage. Once the word gets out, I predict either a huge market for the camera or a much smaller market limited to those independent filmmakers who can afford to leave their DSLRs behind but can't afford to step in to the C500/Red world. We'll see...

Philip Lipetz
05-20-2012, 11:17 AM
Am I missing something? Did somewhere say that BMD hasn't gotten video codec recording implemented? If the BMDCC delivers on what its website specs describe and the ProRes debayer/oversampling is good, I'll be happy. It otherwise fits the bill for what its designed for, as Phillip stated in one of his posts.

The codec is there but not the normal AND COMPLETE controls to maximize an in camera baked in look.

Philip Lipetz
05-20-2012, 11:20 AM
RAW only is limiting...very limiting. I wish they'd get the various codec licenses finalized so they can talk freely about the video codecs and even release some footage. Once the word gets out, I predict either a huge market for the camera or a much smaller market limited to those independent filmmakers who can afford to leave their DSLRs behind but can't afford to step in to the C500/Red world. We'll see...

I repeat, the BM Rep constantly emphasized not to expect them to do much work on codec implementation or controls. they will decide whether to do that at some time after launch. The rep empahsized to base purchase decisions on what is there, but not what you would hope will be there or even what you expect to be there if this was a video camera.

mhood
05-20-2012, 11:35 AM
Well, we're getting very close to a prototype or eight in the hands of some independent bloggers and that should reveal a lot. I can't help but wonder why the third person words of an unnamed BMD Rep spoken to a small group of people would trump official specs published on the BM Website and viewed by millions. There is also the history of BMD Reps touting the 4/3rd's sensor and the ZF mount. There's only been one person (that I'm aware of) who has recorded with the camera and that was a partially functional pre-prototype. I'm going to w8 and see whether BMD wants a huge market for this camera or a much smaller market.

If the ProResHQ is decent and has 13 (or so) stops of DR and can be worked with in CS5 only on my laptop, I'm pretty sure I will like the camera. If not, I'll dump it and keep doing what I've been doing with my 7D. I'm not ready to take pre-orders on my pre-order just yet. ;-)

John Brawley
05-20-2012, 02:35 PM
RAW only is limiting...very limiting. I wish they'd get the various codec licenses finalized so they can talk freely about the video codecs and even release some footage. Once the word gets out, I predict either a huge market for the camera or a much smaller market limited to those independent filmmakers who can afford to leave their DSLRs behind but can't afford to step in to the C500/Red world. We'll see...

They won't do more than they've promised to ship.

Don't expect other codecs or even other flavours of the announced codecs.

BMD are making a RAW camera first and foremost and it's uncompressed. That is their MO...

jb

mhood
05-20-2012, 02:45 PM
They won't do more than they've promised to ship.

Don't expect other codecs or even other flavours of the announced codecs.

BMD are making a RAW camera first and foremost and it's uncompressed. That is their MO...

jb

I understand that John but do you think they will honor their commitment to ProResHQ? If they do and it is workable in Premier CS5.5 on my laptop, I am in their market. If not, I should auction my pre-order. My circumstance absolutely requires portability and a desktop Resolve system is out of the question for me. If I shoot 10 seconds of a digital target with fleshtones (someone's face), can I expect to use that to set levels, WB and quick color in PPro CS5.5? That's really the bottom line question for me. Will my location green screens be 700,000 times better than what I'm currently dealing with using my 7D or will the RAW workflow be an absolute necessity (flushing me out of the market)? Somebody said that all cameras are RAW...

nickjbedford
05-20-2012, 05:06 PM
The codec is there but not the normal AND COMPLETE controls to maximize an in camera baked in look.

Yes, but the codec was never meant to have picture styles. It was meant to be a much more efficient option than raw CinemaDNG, which is why it records a 10-bit log image into ProRes HQ (in "film" image mode) which is the next best thing for colour grading.

As JB keeps saying, this is a raw camera with options to record in a more efficient format. A digital raw "cinema" camera is always going to be a camera made for post production / colour grading.

Dan Pears
05-20-2012, 05:07 PM
Will my location green screens be 700,000 times better than what I'm currently dealing with using my 7D

I'm pretty sure this camera will be 700,000 times better for green screen than your 7D.

Andrew
05-20-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm pretty sure this camera will be 700,000 times better for green screen than your 7D.

my calculation came to 735,230 times better but I guess that's close enough. :)

mhood
05-20-2012, 05:42 PM
Nobody seems to want to answer the other part of my concern though...will I be able to work with ProResHQ to edit my green screens on my Lenovo running CS5.5 while I am sitting in a 777? The RAW workflow WILL NOT do that for me...or am I missing something?

thegregferris
05-20-2012, 05:55 PM
I'd say yes, definitely in AE, and probably in PR...

laco
05-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Nobody seems to want to answer the other part of my concern though...will I be able to work with ProResHQ to edit my green screens on my Lenovo running CS5.5 while I am sitting in a 777? The RAW workflow WILL NOT do that for me...or am I missing something?

If you want to test, download some Alexa test files, and try to edit them.
Sometimes I edit 5D footage. It runs well on my machine, but when it comes to a Prores footage, it's like butter.
Scrubbing is as fast as it can be...The slowest thing in the setup is me...

mhood
05-20-2012, 06:51 PM
^^^I did that and the ProResHQ was pure budda. If I can count on the Fast Color Corrector and UltraKey in CS5 to deal with the LOG ProResHQ (or even 709 if I have to) in at least as fine a fashion as it has been dealing with the AVCHD from my 7D, then I'm going to be a very happy camper. I'll deal with RAW when/if the opportunity ever presents itself for me to go there but for now, I have paying gigs and an exit row seat with power to edit in.

taz291819
05-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Well, it'd be extremely simple to demonstrate the difference. Just take some of your existing footage, and *don't* de-interlace it.

Take your NTSC standard-def 60i footage, and split-screen it with the same footage de-interlaced, and play that split-screen footage on your television. You should see a massive difference.

Barry, I'll give that a shot tomorrow.

Philip Lipetz
05-20-2012, 08:56 PM
Yes, but the codec was never meant to have picture styles. It was meant to be a much more efficient option than raw CinemaDNG, which is why it records a 10-bit log image into ProRes HQ (in "film" image mode) which is the next best thing for colour grading.

As JB keeps saying, this is a raw camera with options to record in a more efficient format. A digital raw "cinema" camera is always going to be a camera made for post production / colour grading.

... and as I keep saying this camera is just a few controls short of the minimum needed for log Prores. Three WB settings does not cut it, and I was told not to expect more.

mhood
05-20-2012, 09:06 PM
^^^But if there is enough latitude in the ProResHQ for me to sort of treat it as though it was RAW, maybe I could "one click" an accurate WB in CS5. At least, that's what I'm hoping for...

Barry Green
05-20-2012, 11:49 PM
Somebody said that all cameras are RAW...
Nobody would have said that.

I said all SENSORS start out as raw, all sensors output a raw image. The camera then either will (in the case of a video camera) or won't (in the case of a raw camera) process that image. The BMC was designed (reading into John's words) as a raw camera. It has only the barest amount of processing to convert the image down to ProRes/DNxHD.

nickjbedford
05-21-2012, 12:36 AM
The BMC was designed (reading into John's words) as a raw camera. It has only the barest amount of processing to convert the image down to ProRes/DNxHD.

And the only thing I expect personally in that processing is a good debayer and scaling algorithm (bicubic?) and accurate conversion from raw linear 12-bit to log 10-bit. Noise reduction before compression is unlikely, if that is something that would be applied in Resolve, right?

laco
05-21-2012, 03:24 AM
^^^I did that and the ProResHQ was pure budda. If I can count on the Fast Color Corrector and UltraKey in CS5 to deal with the LOG ProResHQ (or even 709 if I have to) in at least as fine a fashion as it has been dealing with the AVCHD from my 7D, then I'm going to be a very happy camper. I'll deal with RAW when/if the opportunity ever presents itself for me to go there but for now, I have paying gigs and an exit row seat with power to edit in.

here are some LOG clips from the Alexa, - thanks to BMD! -:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail/?sid=3948&pid=4448&os=mac&leg=false&cp=True

John Brawley
05-21-2012, 05:53 AM
I understand that John but do you think they will honor their commitment to ProResHQ?

Why wouldn't they ? That's what they've said they would do.

jb

mhood
05-21-2012, 06:06 AM
Why wouldn't they ? That's what they've said they would do.

jb

I guess I should have asked "what level of commitment to ProResHQ support might we expect?" Several have said that the BMC will provide less than adequate codec control (given the baked in nature of ProRes). Others have said that BMD Reps indicated little to no desire to develop complete codec controls. I guess we'll find out when we get our cameras, huh?

nickjbedford
05-21-2012, 06:10 AM
What other codec control do you need besides choosing the right white balance for the scene? As far as I can surmise, that's all you need to set correctly (besides exposure obviously).

The film log is designed to give you the video "version" of raw (logarithmic 10-bit) so long as you use a neutral white balance. There really doesn't need to be any other setting unless I'm missing something.

mhood
05-21-2012, 06:18 AM
^^^Custom WB, many more than three ISO settings, it wasn't me who mentioned the lack of what one would expect in a camera.

nickjbedford
05-21-2012, 06:26 AM
^^^Custom WB, many more than three ISO settings, it wasn't me who mentioned the lack of what one would expect in a camera.

Well, that's only one setting. Whoever was talking about "lack of controls" made it sound like they wanted total control over the picture like shooting video on a DSLR.

John Brawley
05-21-2012, 06:27 AM
I guess I should have asked "what level of commitment to ProResHQ support might we expect?" Several have said that the BMC will provide less than adequate codec control (given the baked in nature of ProRes). Others have said that BMD Reps indicated little to no desire to develop complete codec controls. I guess we'll find out when we get our cameras, huh?

The camera will do ProResHQ with the three WB and three ISO settings as described.

jb

mhood
05-21-2012, 06:33 AM
^^^...and no promises with regard to firmware updates...I get it.

pharpsied
05-21-2012, 07:50 AM
I knew there was a reason I hated ProRes... smh.

mhood
05-21-2012, 08:09 AM
I must admit that I'm a bit surprised that Apple would allow a limited application of the license. But somebody did say that Apple is very easy going with its ProRes license and wouldn't be a problem.

Jim
05-21-2012, 09:54 AM
Looking forward to the NY event to learn more about the specs and see what it can do first hand. Also interested to find out if any suggestions on this forum will be implemented at least on the internal software at the expected launch date of late July. It wouldn't surprise me if a second model will be released with many of the features requested such as XLR-Phantom power, aperture settings on the viewfinder, ND filters etc in a year or two at probably a slightly higher price. Until then, my C300 should serve me well with most of my clients that are happy with 4:2:2 50mbps 8 bit. Time will tell.

bumkicho
05-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Until then, my C300 should serve me well with most of my clients that are happy with 4:2:2 50mbps 8 bit. Time will tell.

Shouldn't your C300 serve you well above and beyond BMD camera?

Barry Green
05-21-2012, 10:55 AM
And the only thing I expect personally in that processing is a good debayer and scaling algorithm (bicubic?) and accurate conversion from raw linear 12-bit to log 10-bit. Noise reduction before compression is unlikely, if that is something that would be applied in Resolve, right?
That is what I would expect as well, and that is why I expect a weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth when users first get their hands on the camera. They're going to compare it against processed, noise-reduced, gamma-enhanced, sharpened, color-enhanced video camera footage, and by comparison, their raw (or direct prores) footage is going to look awful, and they're going to scream.

But that's a total misunderstanding of what raw is. YOU must color it, add curves, reduce noise, and sharpen it, or yes, it will look awful. Whether it's coming from ProRes or from raw, all that work needs to be done.

Hopefully the ultraflat "technicolor" profile will have prepared some of the DSLR migrators for the level of work they're required to do to extract the best the BMC will be capable of delivering.

(now with all that said, I don't think we actually know for sure whether the BMC will do any manner of noise reduction or even any other processing in-camera yet, but I would certainly expect that it wouldn't.)

Barry Green
05-21-2012, 10:59 AM
I must admit that I'm a bit surprised that Apple would allow a limited application of the license.
How is it "limited"? They're recording the footage as ProRes. That's what they're supposed to do. White balance and ISO and color and sharpening and all that have zero to do with the codec.

Jim
05-21-2012, 11:33 AM
Shouldn't your C300 serve you well above and beyond BMD camera?

Yes, except for the few instances where a client needs at least 10 bit or higher to match other material and has the budget for grading the raw material from the BMC.

Kholi
05-21-2012, 11:33 AM
For those that keep mentioning expectations for future cameras:

Dan May specifically said there is no roadmap. They don't have another camera, they don't have future plans, they have the Magic Camera that was announced and if it goes well then they may think about doing another one. At this point is time there is only one and that's it. No plans for a larger sensor version, etc.

Super Hydro
05-21-2012, 12:04 PM
Hi Everyone,
I signed up for the Roadshow in NYC but haven't received a conformation email. Has anyone else received theirs? do they only invite certain people?

Willian Aleman
05-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Hi Everyone,
I signed up for the Roadshow in NYC but haven't received a conformation email. Has anyone else received theirs? do they only invite certain people?

Same Here. I did the entry twice thinking that it was a mistake I did, but another friend of mine reported back to me with the same wonder.

Paul Stephen Edwards
05-21-2012, 12:17 PM
You'll get it a couple of days before the event. I had the same fear/concern before the LA event. It's not a problem. :)

Willian Aleman
05-21-2012, 12:43 PM
You'll get it a couple of days before the event. I had the same fear/concern before the LA event. It's not a problem. :)

Paul, thanks for your prompt reply. Good to know.

Kholi
05-21-2012, 12:43 PM
You don't even need to sign up.

I did the morning of and it was fine, but some people just wrote name tags and went in anyway.

Philip Lipetz
05-21-2012, 01:37 PM
How is it "limited"? They're recording the footage as ProRes. That's what they're supposed to do. White balance and ISO and color and sharpening and all that have zero to do with the codec.

but there is less latitude for WB color corrections in ProRes and DNxHD so in camera WB settings are much more important

Barry Green
05-21-2012, 02:03 PM
but there is less latitude for WB color corrections in ProRes and DNxHD so in camera WB settings are much more important
There'll be a little bit less, but still way better than on any other comparable camera anywhere near this price point. You'd have a full 10 bit of color depth, you'd have almost as much chroma information, and ProRes is really quite solid as a codec. I think DSLR users will absolutely be blown away by how much they will be able to do in ProRes. And raw will be better, yes, but it's not like the ProRes is going to be awful!

Tzedekh
05-21-2012, 02:50 PM
That's why I advocated for CineForm RAW: (1) storage requirements similar to those for ProRes or DNxHD, (2) raw workflow, (3) 12-bit color depth, and (4) the ability to work at sensor pixel resolutions. There have been rumors that the BMC is using the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051, which is a 2,560 x 2,160 sensor. If true, even with only 2,432 pixels available horizontally, if more were made available vertically, use of anamorphic lenses for a 2.4:1 (2.39) aspect ratio might be possible eventually.

Joe Giambrone
05-21-2012, 03:26 PM
"There have been rumors that the BMC is using the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051, which is a 2,560 x 2,160 sensor. If true, even with only 2,432 pixels available horizontally, if more were made available vertically, use of anamorphic lenses for a 2.4:1 (2.39) aspect ratio might be possible eventually. "

YES, please let's hear more about the anamorphic option. I would suggest everyone email the company and request this, asap. I've sent along a couple suggestions, already, but this one is big (and shouldn't affect cost, no additional hardware).

Any adapters that can give good anamorphic images right out of the box?

laco
05-21-2012, 03:41 PM
but there is less latitude for WB color corrections in ProRes and DNxHD so in camera WB settings are much more important


There'll be a little bit less, but still way better than on any other comparable camera anywhere near this price point. You'd have a full 10 bit of color depth, you'd have almost as much chroma information, and ProRes is really quite solid as a codec. I think DSLR users will absolutely be blown away by how much they will be able to do in ProRes. And raw will be better, yes, but it's not like the ProRes is going to be awful!

8bit, 50Mbps...Still...a little Davinci magic, and it starts to look right:)
80

Tzedekh
05-21-2012, 04:20 PM
"There have been rumors that the BMC is using the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051, which is a 2,560 x 2,160 sensor. If true, even with only 2,432 pixels available horizontally, if more were made available vertically, use of anamorphic lenses for a 2.4:1 (2.39) aspect ratio might be possible eventually. "

YES, please let's hear more about the anamorphic option. I would suggest everyone email the company and request this, asap. I've sent along a couple suggestions, already, but this one is big (and shouldn't affect cost, no additional hardware).

Any adapters that can give good anamorphic images right out of the box?
I'm sorry if I implied that there was an anamorphic option. As far as I know, there isn't one. It was merely conjecture -- I was just spitballing.

PaulDelVecchio
05-21-2012, 09:38 PM
That's why I advocated for CineForm RAW: (1) storage requirements similar to those for ProRes or DNxHD, (2) raw workflow, (3) 12-bit color depth, and (4) the ability to work at sensor pixel resolutions. There have been rumors that the BMC is using the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051, which is a 2,560 x 2,160 sensor. If true, even with only 2,432 pixels available horizontally, if more were made available vertically, use of anamorphic lenses for a 2.4:1 (2.39) aspect ratio might be possible eventually.

Convert your CinemaDNG files from the cam to CineForm Raw and then if you're worried about space, delete the CinemaDNG files. Keep the Cineform ones. =) It's all about adapting/finding a workflow that works for you. Let's not forget this camera is only $3000. We can't be expecting the world... and by "the world" I mean we can't expect a $3000 camera to do the same thing as a $60,000+ camera. Sure, we can complain and ask, but we shouldn't expect it.

In a few years, we'll have a $3000 camera that does what a current $60,000+ camera does. Just look back at the Sony F900.

Taikonaut
05-22-2012, 12:49 AM
That is what I would expect as well, and that is why I expect a weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth when users first get their hands on the camera. They're going to compare it against processed, noise-reduced, gamma-enhanced, sharpened, color-enhanced video camera footage, and by comparison, their raw (or direct prores) footage is going to look awful, and they're going to scream.

But that's a total misunderstanding of what raw is. YOU must color it, add curves, reduce noise, and sharpen it, or yes, it will look awful. Whether it's coming from ProRes or from raw, all that work needs to be done.

Hopefully the ultraflat "technicolor" profile will have prepared some of the DSLR migrators for the level of work they're required to do to extract the best the BMC will be capable of delivering.

(now with all that said, I don't think we actually know for sure whether the BMC will do any manner of noise reduction or even any other processing in-camera yet, but I would certainly expect that it wouldn't.)

Even more serious video shooters using dSLR uses flat profiles and grade in post.
I think almost everyone buying the BMC will know the footage from it are flat by default and need grading to make it pop. If that what you mean by it being a "cinema" only camera then I'm pretty certain it can be use for other application outside of "cinema".

nickjbedford
05-22-2012, 01:03 AM
But that's a total misunderstanding of what raw is. YOU must color it, add curves, reduce noise, and sharpen it, or yes, it will look awful. Whether it's coming from ProRes or from raw, all that work needs to be done.
(now with all that said, I don't think we actually know for sure whether the BMC will do any manner of noise reduction or even any other processing in-camera yet, but I would certainly expect that it wouldn't.)

I photograph in raw so I'm already used to (and much prefer) grading my own photos in Lightroom and have been getting a handle on Resolve and now all I'm waiting for is the camera itself.

I don't suspect noise to be a big issue with a well lit scene at ASA 800, and certainly something Resolve will take care of.

Tzedekh
05-22-2012, 08:19 AM
Convert your CinemaDNG files from the cam to CineForm Raw and then if you're worried about space, delete the CinemaDNG files. Keep the Cineform ones. =) It's all about adapting/finding a workflow that works for you.
Transcoding from CinemaDNG to CineForm RAW might save some space when editing or archiving, but, as noted in other threads, it further complicates workflow and doesn't afford increased recording times in the camera. Also, if the BMC's sensor is capable of >30 fps, reducing the in-camera per-frame data burden might help make higher frame rates possible eventually, but transcoding wouldn't help there, either. Another thread mentioned that BMD is looking into higher frame rates in ProRes; if GoPro's David Newman is right and CineForm RAW takes less processing power than ProRes, then recording to CineForm RAW in camera would seem a good option (in addition to the default CinemaDNG) to enable higher rates, yet retain virtually all of the advantages of raw. Transcoding to it obviously wouldn't be nearly as worth while. But considering all the criticism I've received for even suggesting it, it's not worth belaboring the point.

The_One_and_Only
05-22-2012, 12:33 PM
I am dyslexic, have nerve damage that makes typing difficult, and usually post on an iPhone, a horrible combination. The properly spelled posts are when I get home to my voice dictation system. Hard to believe that I wrote best selling books, got to love my editors.

Righteous!

The_One_and_Only
05-22-2012, 12:39 PM
Transcoding from CinemaDNG to CineForm RAW might save some space when editing or archiving, but, as noted in other threads, it further complicates workflow and doesn't afford increased recording times in the camera. Also, if the BMC's sensor is capable of >30 fps, reducing the in-camera per-frame data burden might help make higher frame rates possible eventually, but transcoding wouldn't help there, either. Another thread mentioned that BMD is looking into higher frame rates in ProRes; if GoPro's David Newman is right and CineForm RAW takes less processing power than ProRes, then recording to CineForm RAW in camera would seem a good option (in addition to the default CinemaDNG) to enable higher rates, yet retain virtually all of the advantages of raw. Transcoding to it obviously wouldn't be nearly as worth while. But considering all the criticism I've received for even suggesting it, it's not worth belaboring the point.

If you ask David, he will probably tell you the biggest problem is that cineforrm raw wavelets require different processing hardware than ProRes. However, your idea or transcoding to cineform Raw is excellent, how do people expect to archive all that raw footage cheaply. For archive and workflow purposes, keeping cineform raw to 6:1, or 4:1, compression ratio, from memory, should be very optimal in quality.

Tzedekh
05-22-2012, 01:30 PM
If you ask David, he will probably tell you the biggest problem is that cineforrm raw wavelets require different processing hardware than ProRes.
In a tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/David_Newman/status/193390522319114243) a few weeks ago, he seemed to think that the BMC might have an FPGA that might be reprogrammed to encode CineForm RAW: "Yes I would expected an FPGA within that camera. Plus CineForm RAW at 2.5K is easier than ProRES 422 HD."

But it clearly seemed to be a wild guess.


However, your idea or transcoding to cineform Raw is excellent, how do people expect to archive all that raw footage cheaply. For archive and workflow purposes, keeping cineform raw to 6:1, or 4:1, compression ratio, from memory, should be very optimal in quality.
It wasn't my idea, and in fact I really don't care much for it vs. in-camera CineForm RAW encoding.

randyman
05-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Just got confirmation for NYC -

Thank you for registering for the Blackmagic Event on Thursday May 24th at the New Yorker Hotel in the Grand Ballroom!

This event will run from 11:00 AM until 7:00 PM so feel free to come by any time to see our products and speak with our team.

We will also be running theater style seminars throughout the day. *
11:10 AM****** Blackmagic Design Opening Remarks

11:15 PM ****** Apple FCPX w/Blackmagic Workflow

12:15 PM****** Adobe CS6 w/Blackmagic Workflow

1:15 PM******** AVID Symphony, MC6 w/BMD Workflow

2:15 PM******** Blackmagic Design DaVinci Resolve

Short Break after prior session

3:15 PM** * **** Adobe CS6 w/Blackmagic Workflow

4:15 PM***** ** AVID Symphony, MC6 w/BMD Workflow

5:15 PM** *** **Apple FCPX w/Blackmagic Workflow

6:15 PM******** Blackmagic Design DaVinci Resolve 9

We also will be running a raffle for this event. * When you pickup your badge at the venue you will be registered for the drawing we will hold offsite after the event. *You don't need to be at the event at a particular time to win!

Prizes include: *DeckLink HD Extreme 3D+, Intensity Pro, DaVinci Resolve Software,*Adobe CS6, Avid Media Composer 6, PNY Quadro 4000, and a Promise Pegasus 4 HDD.

Thanks again for registering and we'll see you at the event!

Blackmagic Design

Tzedekh
05-22-2012, 01:52 PM
They could have done 4k instead, much easier than in 2006, but the ssd cost of uncompressed, and maybe even dual ones in Raid configuration. As for lacking controls, I had an engineer once who just wanted to use a partly mirrored viewfinder and start stop button for a digital cinema camera.
Uncompressed is a self-imposed limitation -- 4K CineForm RAW has a data rate of only about 30-50% of 2.5K CinemaDNG.

Brad Ferrell
05-22-2012, 03:08 PM
For instance, our old Echolab Super Switcher wasn't designed for a lot of things we do with it, but we've made it work. A little ingenuity goes a long way.

The Death Star used a Grass Valley switcher to destroy Alderaan. See?

113[

laco
05-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Uncompressed is a self-imposed limitation -- 4K CineForm RAW has a data rate of only about 30-50% of 2.5K CinemaDNG.

Maybe uncompressed raw isn't appealing for everyone. I am happy having it because of two things:
- I know that if something looks strange/noisy that isn't there because of the compression, but something else.
- Renting out this camera would be easer if instead of "this camera uses this or that compression" it is uncompressed.

Also Most of the people will use Prores just they do with the Alexa

Tzedekh
05-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Maybe uncompressed raw isn't appealing for everyone. I am happy having it because of two things:
- I know that if something looks strange/noisy that isn't there because of the compression, but something else.
- Renting out this camera would be easer if instead of "this camera uses this or that compression" it is uncompressed.

Also Most of the people will use Prores just they do with the Alexa
BMD could've elected to use visually lossless compression, which would be 2:1 or 2.5:1 and which CinemaDNG supports. By definition, there should be no compression artifacts.

As far as a camera being easier to rent out because it records uncompressed, just about every camera in existence, with the exception of the Sony F65 and those using CinemaDNG, uses a compressed codec -- even, as you noted, the Alexa. But it would be ideal if the BMC had, as an option, compressed raw, the advantages of which I've already noted. CineForm RAW would be the prime candidate (and really the only widely available and mature one). The only issues would be whether the BMC could even handle the processing, whether BMD had any desire to implement it, and how much it would add to the price.

Philip Lipetz
05-22-2012, 06:51 PM
Cineform RAW takes less power than ProRes, so it will handle it. If there is room in the ROM I would gladly pay for an upgrade to Cineform RAW, or even DNG lossless.

nickjbedford
05-22-2012, 07:31 PM
Cineform RAW takes less power than ProRes, so it will handle it. If there is room in the ROM I would gladly pay for an upgrade to Cineform RAW, or even DNG lossless.

If only there was 12-bit ProRes 422 HQ (as opposed to 12-bit 444) :P

The_One_and_Only
05-22-2012, 08:00 PM
Uncompressed is a self-imposed limitation -- 4K CineForm RAW has a data rate of only about 30-50% of 2.5K CinemaDNG.

I would not say limitation (though, why does it not do the full sensor width, it is really only 2.3-2.4k :( ). Cineform might take up too much price and cost. They also have to be allowed to license it too. But I admit, at 2.5k, and with the fpga work cineform did for their proposed field recorder/display viewer product several years ago, it should be very possible with the right hardware.

The_One_and_Only
05-22-2012, 08:23 PM
In a tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/David_Newman/status/193390522319114243) a few weeks ago, he seemed to think that the BMC might have an FPGA that might be reprogrammed to encode CineForm RAW: "Yes I would expected an FPGA within that camera. Plus CineForm RAW at 2.5K is easier than ProRES 422 HD."

But it clearly seemed to be a wild guess.


It wasn't my idea, and in fact I really don't care much for it vs. in-camera CineForm RAW encoding.

Just you put it forward in your post. I agree inside it would be sweet.

BMC might well have a fpga in there of some sort, but fpga's can be an expensive option compared to other processing options, that is where the rub is. Say you pickup a compression chip that does JPEG and the other codecs on frame grabbing cards, cheap. You might e locked into the codecs you use. Say if it supports a programmable compression section, it might not be good, or very good, for cineform wavelet compression, and you are locked out of using it for that. Say it is a general purpose processing array, but again, not good for wavelets, you are locked out again. Say it is a ARM chip and gpu. Older gpu's, in particular (like the ones ARM chips have often had) have been known to be unconducive to wavelet compression. Arm + gpu is the obvious low cost option. Hopefully newer gpu's will work better, but David Newman would be well aware of how to use even an old GPU, to it's maxinum potential for cineform.

I can tell you that to do cineform raw at 2.5k, is probably a minimum of 4-6ghz of PC processing power (without GPU). Probably double that for Arm (a guess). Add the right integrated GPU, the processing can be brought right down.

Willian Aleman
05-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Just got confirmation for NYC - Blackmagic Design

Me 2.

Philip Lipetz
05-22-2012, 10:17 PM
Ask BM about internal exposure meter

laco
05-23-2012, 03:00 AM
BMD could've elected to use visually lossless compression, which would be 2:1 or 2.5:1 and which CinemaDNG supports. By definition, there should be no compression artifacts.

I don't take the expression "visually lossless compression" too seriously...

Let's say you can't see any compression artifacts on the recorded Log image with a 2.5:1 compression. Great.
What about putting some contrast on it?
What about a shot that needs to be corrected a lot (for example it was recorded with a bad WB)?
What if you want to do a very high contrast, BW film?

Will it be visually lossless after these too? Nobody guarantees... That's why ARRIRAW is uncompressed too.
For the original footage even Prores444 can be visually lossless. But if you start grading...Things can fall apart.

So I'm completely happy with the uncompressed option.